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Re: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Variable Ballast Calculations, Bill



Regardless, you still need compressed air to blow the tanks.  Exterior main ballast tanks really only need to be blown near the surface, where the pressure is less (unless you need some kind of emergency blow).  Just enough to keep you afloat/sink.  It's always smarter to have a pressure tank instead of going "direct".  The main ship compressor simply maintains say a 3000 psi level at all times, either from surface air or bladder air.  All other ballast tanks are blown from here.  Military subs go up and down in this way I'm sure as it doesnt give off any bubbles, and they raise/lower depth an unlimited amount of time; simply recycling the air they have.
 
Figure, you can hold a closet-full of air inside a small scuba tank.  That's plenty.  Of course, the initial main ballast vent would be to the atmosphere since it'd probably take FOREVER to compress them into a tank.    Being able to get the air back into the sub just seems like an extra layer of flexibility, albeit unnecessary since you can just use the outside air - hehe. That main vent would simply be a one-way valve to keep the water out of the bladder btw.
 
As for the rest of the smaller ballast/trim tanks they could more easily/quickly be compressed back into the main compressor tank.
 
I guess you could say if you had a ballast/trim system that really only employed a few tanks it'd be beneficial to use a bladder as u could use it at depth to raise/lower depth without wasting air or having to build a bulky ballast tank.  The positive pressure outside the bladder aids in getting the air back into the main compressor tanks. 
 
Anyways, just thoughts.  Those kevlar pressure bags are very expensive.   But it limits component exposure to the elements and cuts down on airspace.  Only really pays if you're building the "ultimate sub" and mostly is beneficial for consumable and waste tanks.  Using them for ballast tanks just cuts down on the steel I guess.  Still fun to dream though.   :)
 
All in all, composites are the future for sub-building.  We all know this.  Fun to think of ways to apply the technology.
 
SH
 
p.s.
btw, I looked up a few compressors.  The ones fire departments use can do like 20 cubit feet/minute at 6,000 psi.  Obviously much faster at lower pressures.  Of course, then you have to factor in the total airspace added from using a large compressor to begin with.  Would simply using more TANKS be better??  UGH!  too much to think about.
----- Original Message -----
From: Akins
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Variable Ballast Calculations, Bill

Hi Shawn.
 
Very interesting. Your ballast tank bladders remind me of something like the bladder for a surface well water tank.
 
So in your design, the bladder's air, would be emptied back into the main compressor tank and NOT back into the hull compressing
 
its atmosphere? The air from the bladders would have to be compressed to go back into the main compressor tank,
 
so would you  use a compressor to suck the air out of the bladders and then store that air in the main compressor tank?
 
Is that what you meant? Interesting idea to keep moisture out of the bladders. But why would it be important to keep moisture
 
out of the ballast tank bladders?
 
Bill.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Shawn H.
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Variable Ballast Calculations, Bill

Just jumping in here... I dont know if you guys mentioned this before, but I'm actually thinking of employing a certain type of ballast system in my design(s).  It involves the use of kevlar (or hybrid kevlar/carbon-fiber) bladders.  Basically the actual ballast tank is merely a shell to hold the bladder.  The bladder itself is connected to the inside of the pressure hull and pumped full for positive bouyancy.  In reverse, it can be emptied back into the main compressor tank, to enable negative bouyancy.  The bladder shell of course is open to the sea ventrally.
 
This system ensures the air in and out of the boat is dry and takes some of the pressure off of the shell.  If for some reason there is a valve failure you dont run the risk of getting water inside the boat unless at extreme depth and the kevlar fails.  They actually use similar systems for use in portable hyperbaric chambers.  The chambers can be collapsed to fit into a suitcase, then pressurized to whatever depth is required.
 
As well, this system is what I'll be using for all consumables (fuel, black water, grey water, fresh water, etc.)  This ensures minimum airspace inside the boat as the excess space around the bladders are filled with water.
 
Anyways, something to think about... albeit expensive.  :(
 
Shawn