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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Design depth



Hi Sean and obviously to all fellow members, Les here in Australia monitoring all the blurb, it is all interesting and informative.
Just a couple of thoughts, as with Doctors talking with their trained terminology, likewise, Engineers and the like, to those not in the field it does sound complicated, 
inherently increased by those same professionals not having that other specialized field of knowing how to impart that knowledge.
 
It is all in the way it is presented .....as a suggestion;  would it not be simpler to give an example of a simple workable format and then the related maths to confirm how it was established so that individuals can reverse engineer a simple format to assist them to understand the principles, maths and calculations easier, to apply to for more
complicated  formats.
      i.e.. A simple example if you like, to help them visualize and get an indication of exactly what is involved. 
            eg. If someone in the club, engineering orientated, could, for the exercise, apply this to;
                  a simple cylinder say 1200mm diameter x 4meter long, no tapers 
                  include  two normal round end caps no other orifices 
                  for maximum depth operating 300feet add the safety margin say 25% or whatever the recommendation is
                  then calculate the requirements using solid sheet steel and say what thickness is required to withstand the appropriate pressure.
                  then calculate what steel thickness is required with stiffeners at a set spans and give those dimensions of material  for the same pressure.
                  Perhaps even the same cylinder confiuration at 200 feet and 100feet  and 50 feet to give people a feel of the material sizes and weight  changes  for 
                  each  depth pressure.
 
            What this does for the layperson is give them a perception of size, shape, steel dimensions, weight etc.of what they should be considering ,which also acts
            as a reasonable check to their later calculations with tapers and other shapes, and conning towers, considering dynamic loads etc.
            They then have an idea of what expectations should be for  the environment they are calculating for .........a base line if you like.
 
            The disciplines that are required to build a successful submarine are many and there are very few who have mastered them all, but so many logical practical 
            people can more quickly gain an learn if they are given a base line in all areas
           
            For example until you are give a weight indication of an unknown item you are completely in the dark unless it is your field.
            For example, the size and weight of an appropriate re-breather unit for a given number of persons and hours of use etc.  
                                How much volume a 1000litres of liquid takes up, the weight of a 1000 litres of liquid etc. the size and weight of appropriate batteries etc.
                                This is the same for all of us outside our normal expertise ...a fact often forgotten by those within it.
                                The list is endless.....but once you have an indication (an example) of requirements the mind can perceive and calculate and work out accordingly, 
                                at least a rough indication anyway.
                                It is a simple thing really..........how many of us can even visualize what 10 million $1 notes look like,  let alone how much
                                volume, or how much weight is involved. ...yes we can, given the weight of one note and the size of one note, whether new or old notes, and how
                                tightly they can be bound etc we can work it out eventually, but until then we have absolutely no idea.
                                However a given indication, is enough to be informative enough to roughly gauge these specifications of any amount.
 
Well I have waffled on enough, I hope this simple  suggestion is a positive one and seen as useful  to aid new members, even some old ones .........on the lighter side, if anyone was comfortable in visualising that 10million $1 question without assistance .. ... we all want to be your friend and sit with you  in  your room and count it with you.
Cheers
Les from down under.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Design depth

Jinesh - what you are asking is a pretty basic physics question, and I don't want to make any assumptions about your background, but I would like to be sure that you are working within your comfort zone with this stuff - otherwise the results could be disastrous.

That said, as a good reality check for any calculation, if you are unsure, check that the units work out.  For example, when you supposed:

>> Is it just,  depth = (P.allowable/density of water)

If you look at the dimensions of each quantity, pressure is force divided by area, and density is mass divided by volume.  Illustrating this with SI units, dividing pressure [N/m^2] by density [kg/m^3] gives you [N*m/kg] or [J/kg], which is specific energy - obviously not a depth unit.

To answer your question, the pressure at a given depth is found by the equation

P = rho * g * h, where rho is the fluid density, g is the acceleration due to gravity, and h is the height of the water column.  For example, at a depth of 800 meters in salt water:

P = 1025 [kg/m^3] * 9.80665 [m/s] * 800 [m] = 8 041 453 [N/m^2] or [Pa], or 8.04 MPa, relative to the sea surface.  Standard atmospheric pressure is 101.325 kPa which would then be added to this value to get the absolute pressure.

-Sean


On 08/12/2010 6:02 PM, jinesh gandhi wrote:
Thanks Sean.

I perfectly got your point. I have values for all the P.allowable ready with me for all the criteria listed in ABS guidelines. I also have my assumed design depth ready. How can I co-relate my design depth with minimum P.allowable?

Is it just,  depth = (P.allowable/density of water)

or any other equation that co-relates these two variable?

Thanks,
Jinesh

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Sean T. Stevenson <cast55@telus.net> wrote:
On Wednesday 08 December 2010 17:28:22 you wrote:
> Hello People,
>
>    I am trying to carry out design calculations for the pressure Hull,
> according to the ABS guidelines. However, I couldn't find a section in the
> Guidelines suggesting how to find design depth for the sub.
>
> I have been using Hull Calculator (found on psubs website) as a reference
> for my calculations.  Also, I've found different criteria (equations) to
> find the design depth on different sources.
>
> Can anyone suggest me what equation to use to find the design depth?
>
> TIA,
> Jinesh


Design depth is an input which governs your design (i.e. you determine the
depth capability you need and design to meet it).  If you look at the ABS
guide, each of the metallic pressure boundary component sections (i.e.
cylindrical sections, cones, spheres) has equations which allow you to
calculate a P_cr, which is the short term critical pressure (minimum possible
failure pressure) for the dominant mode of failure for the particular
component.  In addition, you will find a usage factor which is some multiplier
of P_cr appropriate to the failure condition.  The usage factor multiplied by
P_cr gives the maximum allowable working pressure for the component under
consideration.  Typically, you want to design your sub such that P_allowable
is equivalent for each hull component - otherwise, you are making components
heavier or more complicated than they need to be, because the lowest
P_allowable will fail first.  The only caveat to this process is that you want
your first failure mode (lowest P_allowable) to be a strength failure and not
a buckling failure, since this is deterministic.