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Hi Jon, That I think is a great point about over-generalization to put everyone in one category. Perhaps as ones health changes they should seriously consider diving only in areas they feel they could do a wet exit from, and/or have the type of sub and surface support that can more easily deal with what they might likely find in that area. I very much like the idea of two subs diving together, in a buddy system, like SCUBA divers like to do. It would be even better if both subs have a good manipulator or two on each sub to help free the other. Of course having a solid sub that is designed with a number of options for getting back to the surface with out having to do a wet exit, I feel is a good plan. Perhaps having one or more wet exit training subs for those that wish to practice to what they and others feel they can handle with quality support, might save some lives in the future. Perhaps even mine. To start one might practice on the procedures on dry land in the sub, and after passing that and a academic test. Then on to real flooding of the sub with just a garden hose on dry land, so they can see how they need to move in a flooded sub. Then on to the say a 20 to 30 foot depth with clear water and a gravel bottom with a number of safety divers. Beyond that we will need to formula a plan. But that should be a good start, and there is much work to do to get to even that point. I can see how a even more basic sub then mine like the Captians UEM K-250 with no batteries and other electronics that I'm aware of , could easily be made into a wet exit training sub. I hope one of you guys got it off ebay today. Regards, Szybowski > Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 00:23:28 -0400 > From: jonw@psubs.org > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Escape from sub > > > Jay, > > Thanks for that, because I was getting ready to suggest the same thing. > I think it's over-generalization to put everyone in one category and > expect they are going to have the same experience as military personnel > in a controlled training exercise. Some of us are old enough that we > could be fathers of those military boys, some of us have a bit more > weight on our frame than we should, a bit less mobility, and probably a > bit less stamina. I think all those things are likely to impact a > persons ability to tolerate the conditions of a bail-out. > > I applaud Brent's desire to do some real world training with a floodable > sub, however I question the applicability of any of his findings to > anyone else that doesn't fit somewhere close within his physical > attributes. My thinking is that this really is a personal thing and > people need to spend some time investigating their own limitations > whether it be similar to what Brent is proposing, or merely testing some > aspects (ear clearing) in a local pool or pond. You don't necessarily > require a sub to gauge your own limitations to some of the conditions > you will have to encounter. How about a bounce dive to 150 feet, take > one breath, pull the regulator out of your mouth and hold it in your > hand, and then ho-ho-ho yourself to the surface. How long did it take > you? Did you have to stop and put the regulator back in your mouth > before surfacing? > > I think we tend to trivialize escaping a sub. Bah, it's only 150 > feet...that's within diving table limits. No problem, slap open a valve, > flood the thing, open the hatch and swim to the surface. Why, I'll be > home in time for lunch! > > I hope someday someone can tell us from personal experience (maybe > Brent?) that it is just as easy as that, but something tells it's not > going to be quite that simple. > > Jon > > > Jay K. Jeffries wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > Not everyone’s ear drums are blown but the percentage goes up the > > deeper you go. This is briefed as part of your training in emergency > > ascents plus is referenced in the paper that was cited here a few days > > ago (I have other technical references buried away from my when I > > developed the presentation on this subject). People that dive > > regularly usually have an easier time equalizing (but more difficulty > > when “pressed down” in a bubble, also referenced in the paper). You > > have to remember that SEALs are at the top of physical conditioning > > and health when diving plus have experience way beyond your typical > > PSUBber making an emergency ascent. You are mixing apples and oranges. > > > > R/Jay > > > > / / > > > > > > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > ************************************************************************ > The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal > CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. 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