Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]:RE: PSUBS Praise! (formally Rip Off!!!)

["steve" <steve@kobol.worldonline.co.uk>]

Ray and Jon

i have just read this mail and would like to petition to change the subject
line on this thread.

I have been following this list for the last two years 2 years and i think
it is one of the most interesting subjects i've come across, and the
knowledge that i have gained through the list is immesurable and this site
is an inspiration to anyone with an interest in Psubs.

I think the list is run very well and i am well aware of the amount of
effort that must go into it.
Personally i have looked at buying some plans before, but i did take note
that it does clearly mention a drawing and the cost is only $30!  i recall
seeing somewhere that plans do retail based on $1 per foot of depth, so i
believe that would make the real plans at least $300?
My own project may be a lowly ROV, as i don't think i have the money or time
to to build the full size vehicle, but the wealth of info that drops into my
mailbox on a daily basis really spurs me on.
I would say ThankYou to you both for the effort to make this list what it is
today.

Best Regards

Steve Bosworth
UK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Wallace" <jon@psubs.org>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>; "david cutajar"
<davecutajar@djcengineering.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]:RE: PSUB RipOff!!


> Dave,
>
> I'm sorry you were not satisfied with the drawing.  One of my first jobs
out
> of high school was in a local hardware store.  When people came in and
> complained about the quality of something they had purchased, the owner
would
> say "We're sorry you weren't satisfied.  If we made it, it would be
perfect."
>
> Neither Ray nor I manufacture any sub plans sold on PSUBS.  They are
provided
> to us "as is" by the owner of the plans.  In this case, George Kittredge
owns
> the rights to all Kittredge sub drawings and plans.  We do not have any
> control over the quality nor the quantity of information provided in the
> drawing.  George Kittredge sets the price of the plans and we merely
provide
> an avenue on the web site for distribution of them.  If somebody wants to
> sell something and we think it has value to the PSUBS community, we put it
on
> the website.  It's subjective on our part, but we try to do our best to
make
> the right decision.
>
> There is a link on the website store called "Terms of Sale".  This page
> includes the following text:
> PSUBS.ORG Merchandise Disclaimer
> All merchandise from PSUBS.ORG is sold on a consignment basis and
> PSUBS.ORG makes no warranty of any kind for any products sold from
> our web site.   Please contact the manufacturer directly for any issues
> regarding their products.
>
> I think your disatisfaction with the Kittredge drawing is therefore more
> appropriately addressed with George Kittredge.  We've sold a number of
these
> drawings and this is the first complaint I've heard of.  That's not an
> excuse.  It's certainly possible that others have been disappointed and
> simply not vocalized their feelings.
>
> I have to disagree with your characterization of the product description
on
> the web site as inaccurate.  The entire description is, "This conceptual
> drawing is one sheet from the complete set of authentic Kittredge K-250
plans
> for the proven pressure hull of the K-250, and is an excellent resource as
a
> starting point for those who want to construct their own submersible."  I
> don't believe we are deceiving anyone when we clearly advertise the
product
> is a conceptual drawing and is only one sheet from the K-250 plans.  If we
> were advertising the product as THE complete K-250 plans, then the
> description would obviously be inaccurate.
>
> In regards to the amount of time it took to ship the product...you found
the
> right guy and I'm guilty as charged.  I apologize that it took a month to
get
> the drawing to you.  I sometimes forget to check my email notices as often
as
> I should, and sometimes other issues cause a delay.  There was a gentleman
> who ordered some Markham plans not too long ago, who waited almost as long
as
> you did because I never received a notice from EBAY.  If PSUBS were my
full
> time job I'd have orders filled immediately, but it's not.  So I tend to
get
> to these things when I have the time.  Obviously in your case, there's no
> excuse for taking a month to delivery something paid via PayPal but I
don't
> recall why it took so long.  However, I will make sure we refund your
money
> since the plans were not to your expectations and they took so long to be
> delivered.
>
>
> TO THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY:
> Neither Ray or I are intentionally trying to deceive or rip anyone off
when it
> comes to PSUBS.  Both of us have put long hours into the web site and the
> organization.  In general, if you haven't subsidized something you can be
> sure that either Ray or I have fronted the money to make it happen.  Ray
puts
> his own money up to purchase those awards that we give out every year.  I
put
> up my own money for hats and t-shirts.  It cost Ray and I $160.00 just to
> have the PSUBS logo digitized for the embroidery machines that create the
> hats.  I front the money for the domain name and bandwidth we use.  Ray
and I
> front the money for the conventions.  Ray was able to put a total of
$11.00
> in the PSUBS kitty after all the costs associated with the 2002
convention.
> This year we did a little better and ended up with $150.00 after all the
> costs associated with the 2003 convention.  That $161.00 will barely cover
> the cost of the meeting room for the 2004 convention.
>
> Our intent with the PSUBS store was simply to try and make enough money
from
> consignments and sales of t-shirts/hats so that we could fund awards,
> conventions, and other similar things without constantly using our own
money.
> So far, we've failed miserably considering after seven years our "kitty"
has
> a total of $150.00 in it.  And that's only because Ray refused to use part
of
> that $150 for the 2003 award plaques.
>
> I'm not looking for sympathy, and I don't believe Ray is either.  We both
> contribute our time and money because we sincerely believe in this
> organization.  We don't have to, we want to.  We are co-founders of PSUBS
and
> have watched it grow from private email correspondence between a handful
of
> people to the "monster" that it is today.  And frankly, we're proud of it
and
> what we all (including all of you) have accomplished with it.  The last
thing
> we want to be perceived of doing is ripping anyone off.  If we need to
> scrutinize the products we offer on the website better...we'll do that.
And
> I promise that I will make an exceeding effort to get orders in the queue
> faster when they are received.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> On Monday February 23 2004 21:48, david cutajar wrote:
> > Yup, that's right- PSUB Ripoff!! Who would have
> > thought that??Maybe if I purchased from Ebay, but from
> > PSUB?????
> >
> > I recently purchased the K250 pressure hull plan from
> > the online store on the Psub.org website.
> >
> > This one page plan is touted as:
> >
> >  " an excellent resource as a starting point for those
> > who want to construct their own submersible. ".
> >
> > I Paid by PayPal - Payment  To  Jonathan Wallace on
> > Jan. 24, 2004;
> >
> > I received the package today Feb. 23, 2004.
> >
> > I purchased the plan, thinking it would be a good
> > reference source (as they claimed).
> >
> > As you may suspect, I am very disapointed in the
> > print. It is terrible, and offers NO value.
> >
> > The BOM (Bill Of Material) only references Part
> > numbers - i.e. there is no information on anything
> > that is of value: for example if you were curious as
> > to what size rings (hull frame)were used - or the
> > rings thickness etc., all you will realize is that it
> > is detail #3 part number K250-007 - Completely
> > Useless.
> >
> > Curious about the diameter of the forward viewport?
> > too bad - all it says is part number K250-020.
> >
> > After a much anticipated wait of one month I cannot
> > believe how bad I got ripped off, and the worst part
> > is I waited a month.
> >
> > Obtaining this Item from PSUB made me feel secure in
> > my purchase. The description in PSUB is not accurate.
> >
> > This item is BENEATH this fine web site and I implore
> > you to REMOVE this item from the online store as it is
> > a complete rip-off.
> >
> > I am the owner of an engineering firm (just north of
> > Detoit, MI). We design and manufacture industrial
> > equipment from clean room enviroments to foundry
> > equipment. We often get jobs that are too complex or
> > technical for other companies and we have designed
> > laser welders,camera & optics, specialty machines for
> > fuel cell processes, robotic cells of all sorts,
> > secondary plastics equipment, entire plant lines, Mig,
> > tig, laser cells, non- destruct inspection equip,
> > material handling etc., etc., etc. We do small tools
> > such as operator assisted tools for assembly plants,
> > to complete manufacturing lines & engineering ($110M).
> > Many of these industries require a large amount of
> > R&D.
> >
> > I have been doing alot of R&D, for the design I am
> > working on for (2) one person subs, that I plan to
> > build and certify together. The subs can be operated
> > in a "connected" mode, or detached, operating both
> > together in a "buddy-system" fashion, like SCUBA for
> > safety.
> >
> > I started out as a machinist in High School, where I
> > took 1st in the state every year; I was a project
> > leader (for a company)when I was still in High School;
> > I became a fixture builder, then Model Maker (that
> > industry went out), CNC operator, CAD operator,
> > designer, Special Machines & Gages, BIW process and
> > tooling.
> >
> > I don't do the hands on as much anymore - I havn't
> > been on Catia or UG for years, but I can find my way
> > around Mech-Desktop though.
> >
> > I'm not bragging or preaching to this group - I know
> > there is a ton of knowledge and talent in this group.
> > I just wanted to let you know that I am not a complete
> > idiot, and that I have been around a shop, wrenches,
> > torches and prints for my entire life, and that this
> > print sucked (hard).
> >
> > If anyone wants a copy, I will scan it (into several
> > (4?) sections) and give them to you free; but please
> > do not purchase this as you will be disapointed.
> >
> > Sorry for the negative email.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > David Cutajar
> > DJC Engineering
> >
> > davecutajar@yahoo.com
>