Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]:RE: PSUB RipOff!!

[Jonathan Wallace <jon@psubs.org>]

Dave,

I'm sorry you were not satisfied with the drawing.  One of my first jobs out 
of high school was in a local hardware store.  When people came in and 
complained about the quality of something they had purchased, the owner would 
say "We're sorry you weren't satisfied.  If we made it, it would be perfect."

Neither Ray nor I manufacture any sub plans sold on PSUBS.  They are provided 
to us "as is" by the owner of the plans.  In this case, George Kittredge owns 
the rights to all Kittredge sub drawings and plans.  We do not have any 
control over the quality nor the quantity of information provided in the 
drawing.  George Kittredge sets the price of the plans and we merely provide 
an avenue on the web site for distribution of them.  If somebody wants to 
sell something and we think it has value to the PSUBS community, we put it on 
the website.  It's subjective on our part, but we try to do our best to make 
the right decision.

There is a link on the website store called "Terms of Sale".  This page 
includes the following text:
	PSUBS.ORG Merchandise Disclaimer 
	All merchandise from PSUBS.ORG is sold on a consignment basis and
	PSUBS.ORG makes no warranty of any kind for any products sold from
	our web site.   Please contact the manufacturer directly for any issues
	regarding their products.

I think your disatisfaction with the Kittredge drawing is therefore more 
appropriately addressed with George Kittredge.  We've sold a number of these 
drawings and this is the first complaint I've heard of.  That's not an 
excuse.  It's certainly possible that others have been disappointed and 
simply not vocalized their feelings.

I have to disagree with your characterization of the product description on 
the web site as inaccurate.  The entire description is, "This conceptual 
drawing is one sheet from the complete set of authentic Kittredge K-250 plans 
for the proven pressure hull of the K-250, and is an excellent resource as a 
starting point for those who want to construct their own submersible."  I 
don't believe we are deceiving anyone when we clearly advertise the product 
is a conceptual drawing and is only one sheet from the K-250 plans.  If we 
were advertising the product as THE complete K-250 plans, then the 
description would obviously be inaccurate.

In regards to the amount of time it took to ship the product...you found the 
right guy and I'm guilty as charged.  I apologize that it took a month to get 
the drawing to you.  I sometimes forget to check my email notices as often as 
I should, and sometimes other issues cause a delay.  There was a gentleman 
who ordered some Markham plans not too long ago, who waited almost as long as 
you did because I never received a notice from EBAY.  If PSUBS were my full 
time job I'd have orders filled immediately, but it's not.  So I tend to get 
to these things when I have the time.  Obviously in your case, there's no 
excuse for taking a month to delivery something paid via PayPal but I don't 
recall why it took so long.  However, I will make sure we refund your money 
since the plans were not to your expectations and they took so long to be 
delivered.


TO THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY:
Neither Ray or I are intentionally trying to deceive or rip anyone off when it 
comes to PSUBS.  Both of us have put long hours into the web site and the 
organization.  In general, if you haven't subsidized something you can be 
sure that either Ray or I have fronted the money to make it happen.  Ray puts 
his own money up to purchase those awards that we give out every year.  I put 
up my own money for hats and t-shirts.  It cost Ray and I $160.00 just to 
have the PSUBS logo digitized for the embroidery machines that create the 
hats.  I front the money for the domain name and bandwidth we use.  Ray and I 
front the money for the conventions.  Ray was able to put a total of $11.00 
in the PSUBS kitty after all the costs associated with the 2002 convention.  
This year we did a little better and ended up with $150.00 after all the 
costs associated with the 2003 convention.  That $161.00 will barely cover 
the cost of the meeting room for the 2004 convention.

Our intent with the PSUBS store was simply to try and make enough money from 
consignments and sales of t-shirts/hats so that we could fund awards, 
conventions, and other similar things without constantly using our own money.  
So far, we've failed miserably considering after seven years our "kitty" has 
a total of $150.00 in it.  And that's only because Ray refused to use part of 
that $150 for the 2003 award plaques.

I'm not looking for sympathy, and I don't believe Ray is either.  We both 
contribute our time and money because we sincerely believe in this 
organization.  We don't have to, we want to.  We are co-founders of PSUBS and 
have watched it grow from private email correspondence between a handful of 
people to the "monster" that it is today.  And frankly, we're proud of it and 
what we all (including all of you) have accomplished with it.  The last thing 
we want to be perceived of doing is ripping anyone off.  If we need to 
scrutinize the products we offer on the website better...we'll do that.  And 
I promise that I will make an exceeding effort to get orders in the queue 
faster when they are received.

Jon



On Monday February 23 2004 21:48, david cutajar wrote:
> Yup, that's right- PSUB Ripoff!! Who would have
> thought that??Maybe if I purchased from Ebay, but from
> PSUB?????
>
> I recently purchased the K250 pressure hull plan from
> the online store on the Psub.org website.
>
> This one page plan is touted as:
>
>  " an excellent resource as a starting point for those
> who want to construct their own submersible. ".
>
> I Paid by PayPal - Payment  To  Jonathan Wallace on
> Jan. 24, 2004;
>
> I received the package today Feb. 23, 2004.
>
> I purchased the plan, thinking it would be a good
> reference source (as they claimed).
>
> As you may suspect, I am very disapointed in the
> print. It is terrible, and offers NO value.
>
> The BOM (Bill Of Material) only references Part
> numbers - i.e. there is no information on anything
> that is of value: for example if you were curious as
> to what size rings (hull frame)were used - or the
> rings thickness etc., all you will realize is that it
> is detail #3 part number K250-007 - Completely
> Useless.
>
> Curious about the diameter of the forward viewport?
> too bad - all it says is part number K250-020.
>
> After a much anticipated wait of one month I cannot
> believe how bad I got ripped off, and the worst part
> is I waited a month.
>
> Obtaining this Item from PSUB made me feel secure in
> my purchase. The description in PSUB is not accurate.
>
> This item is BENEATH this fine web site and I implore
> you to REMOVE this item from the online store as it is
> a complete rip-off.
>
> I am the owner of an engineering firm (just north of
> Detoit, MI). We design and manufacture industrial
> equipment from clean room enviroments to foundry
> equipment. We often get jobs that are too complex or
> technical for other companies and we have designed
> laser welders,camera & optics, specialty machines for
> fuel cell processes, robotic cells of all sorts,
> secondary plastics equipment, entire plant lines, Mig,
> tig, laser cells, non- destruct inspection equip,
> material handling etc., etc., etc. We do small tools
> such as operator assisted tools for assembly plants,
> to complete manufacturing lines & engineering ($110M).
> Many of these industries require a large amount of
> R&D.
>
> I have been doing alot of R&D, for the design I am
> working on for (2) one person subs, that I plan to
> build and certify together. The subs can be operated
> in a "connected" mode, or detached, operating both
> together in a "buddy-system" fashion, like SCUBA for
> safety.
>
> I started out as a machinist in High School, where I
> took 1st in the state every year; I was a project
> leader (for a company)when I was still in High School;
> I became a fixture builder, then Model Maker (that
> industry went out), CNC operator, CAD operator,
> designer, Special Machines & Gages, BIW process and
> tooling.
>
> I don't do the hands on as much anymore - I havn't
> been on Catia or UG for years, but I can find my way
> around Mech-Desktop though.
>
> I'm not bragging or preaching to this group - I know
> there is a ton of knowledge and talent in this group.
> I just wanted to let you know that I am not a complete
> idiot, and that I have been around a shop, wrenches,
> torches and prints for my entire life, and that this
> print sucked (hard).
>
> If anyone wants a copy, I will scan it (into several
> (4?) sections) and give them to you free; but please
> do not purchase this as you will be disapointed.
>
> Sorry for the negative email.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David Cutajar
> DJC Engineering
>
> davecutajar@yahoo.com