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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]:RE: PSUB RipOff!!



Jon,

Again, Sorry about that- next time I will wait a
little longer than 5 min. from receipt before I spurt
off an angry note and piss of what? -the main guy at
the site? It's obvious I made you upset...

I think that the site offers so much more practical
information, etc. else where - for free - ....

I wouldn't mind donating cash to the site, I feel that
would be much more worth it....

Anyway, in a round-about-way, my point was how much I
actually like this forum & site....

and again it was nothing against you personally...

thanks Coalbunny and Steven Mills also...

And Guys - if I pissed ya off sorry.....

I hope this doesn't continue to detract from real sub
threads.....


Sincerely,


David Cutajar

--- Jonathan Wallace <jon@psubs.org> wrote:
> Dave,
> 
> I'm sorry you were not satisfied with the drawing. 
> One of my first jobs out 
> of high school was in a local hardware store.  When
> people came in and 
> complained about the quality of something they had
> purchased, the owner would 
> say "We're sorry you weren't satisfied.  If we made
> it, it would be perfect."
> 
> Neither Ray nor I manufacture any sub plans sold on
> PSUBS.  They are provided 
> to us "as is" by the owner of the plans.  In this
> case, George Kittredge owns 
> the rights to all Kittredge sub drawings and plans. 
> We do not have any 
> control over the quality nor the quantity of
> information provided in the 
> drawing.  George Kittredge sets the price of the
> plans and we merely provide 
> an avenue on the web site for distribution of them. 
> If somebody wants to 
> sell something and we think it has value to the
> PSUBS community, we put it on 
> the website.  It's subjective on our part, but we
> try to do our best to make 
> the right decision.
> 
> There is a link on the website store called "Terms
> of Sale".  This page 
> includes the following text:
> 	PSUBS.ORG Merchandise Disclaimer 
> 	All merchandise from PSUBS.ORG is sold on a
> consignment basis and
> 	PSUBS.ORG makes no warranty of any kind for any
> products sold from
> 	our web site.   Please contact the manufacturer
> directly for any issues
> 	regarding their products.
> 
> I think your disatisfaction with the Kittredge
> drawing is therefore more 
> appropriately addressed with George Kittredge. 
> We've sold a number of these 
> drawings and this is the first complaint I've heard
> of.  That's not an 
> excuse.  It's certainly possible that others have
> been disappointed and 
> simply not vocalized their feelings.
> 
> I have to disagree with your characterization of the
> product description on 
> the web site as inaccurate.  The entire description
> is, "This conceptual 
> drawing is one sheet from the complete set of
> authentic Kittredge K-250 plans 
> for the proven pressure hull of the K-250, and is an
> excellent resource as a 
> starting point for those who want to construct their
> own submersible."  I 
> don't believe we are deceiving anyone when we
> clearly advertise the product 
> is a conceptual drawing and is only one sheet from
> the K-250 plans.  If we 
> were advertising the product as THE complete K-250
> plans, then the 
> description would obviously be inaccurate.
> 
> In regards to the amount of time it took to ship the
> product...you found the 
> right guy and I'm guilty as charged.  I apologize
> that it took a month to get 
> the drawing to you.  I sometimes forget to check my
> email notices as often as 
> I should, and sometimes other issues cause a delay. 
> There was a gentleman 
> who ordered some Markham plans not too long ago, who
> waited almost as long as 
> you did because I never received a notice from EBAY.
>  If PSUBS were my full 
> time job I'd have orders filled immediately, but
> it's not.  So I tend to get 
> to these things when I have the time.  Obviously in
> your case, there's no 
> excuse for taking a month to delivery something paid
> via PayPal but I don't 
> recall why it took so long.  However, I will make
> sure we refund your money 
> since the plans were not to your expectations and
> they took so long to be 
> delivered.
> 
> 
> TO THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY:
> Neither Ray or I are intentionally trying to deceive
> or rip anyone off when it 
> comes to PSUBS.  Both of us have put long hours into
> the web site and the 
> organization.  In general, if you haven't subsidized
> something you can be 
> sure that either Ray or I have fronted the money to
> make it happen.  Ray puts 
> his own money up to purchase those awards that we
> give out every year.  I put 
> up my own money for hats and t-shirts.  It cost Ray
> and I $160.00 just to 
> have the PSUBS logo digitized for the embroidery
> machines that create the 
> hats.  I front the money for the domain name and
> bandwidth we use.  Ray and I 
> front the money for the conventions.  Ray was able
> to put a total of $11.00 
> in the PSUBS kitty after all the costs associated
> with the 2002 convention.  
> This year we did a little better and ended up with
> $150.00 after all the 
> costs associated with the 2003 convention.  That
> $161.00 will barely cover 
> the cost of the meeting room for the 2004
> convention.
> 
> Our intent with the PSUBS store was simply to try
> and make enough money from 
> consignments and sales of t-shirts/hats so that we
> could fund awards, 
> conventions, and other similar things without
> constantly using our own money.  
> So far, we've failed miserably considering after
> seven years our "kitty" has 
> a total of $150.00 in it.  And that's only because
> Ray refused to use part of 
> that $150 for the 2003 award plaques.
> 
> I'm not looking for sympathy, and I don't believe
> Ray is either.  We both 
> contribute our time and money because we sincerely
> believe in this 
> organization.  We don't have to, we want to.  We are
> co-founders of PSUBS and 
> have watched it grow from private email
> correspondence between a handful of 
> people to the "monster" that it is today.  And
> frankly, we're proud of it and 
> what we all (including all of you) have accomplished
> with it.  The last thing 
> we want to be perceived of doing is ripping anyone
> off.  If we need to 
> scrutinize the products we offer on the website
> better...we'll do that.  And 
> I promise that I will make an exceeding effort to
> get orders in the queue 
> faster when they are received.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday February 23 2004 21:48, david cutajar
> wrote:
> > Yup, that's right- PSUB Ripoff!! Who would have
> > thought that??Maybe if I purchased from Ebay, but
> from
> > PSUB?????
> >
> > I recently purchased the K250 pressure hull plan
> from
> > the online store on the Psub.org website.
> >
> > This one page plan is touted as:
> >
> >  " an excellent resource as a starting point for
> those
> > who want to construct their own submersible. ".
> >
> > I Paid by PayPal - Payment  To  Jonathan Wallace
> on
> > Jan. 24, 2004;
> >
> > I received the package today Feb. 23, 2004.
> >
> > I purchased the plan, thinking it would be a good
> > reference source (as they claimed).
> >
> > As you may suspect, I am very disapointed in the
> > print. It is terrible, and offers NO value.
> >
> > The BOM (Bill Of Material) only references Part
> > numbers - i.e. there is no information on anything
> > that is of value: for example if you were curious
> as
> > to what size rings (hull frame)were used - or the
> > rings thickness etc., all you will realize is that
> it
> > is detail #3 part number K250-007 - Completely
> > Useless.
> >
> > Curious about the diameter of the forward
> viewport?
> > too bad - all it says is part number K250-020.
> >
> > After a much anticipated wait of one month I
> cannot
> > believe how bad I got ripped off, and the worst
> part
> > is I waited a month.
> >
> > Obtaining this Item from PSUB made me feel secure
> in
> > my purchase. The description in PSUB is not
> accurate.
> >
> > This item is BENEATH this fine web site and I
> implore
> > you to REMOVE this item from the online store as
> it is
> > a complete rip-off.
> >
> > I am the owner of an engineering firm (just north
> of
> > Detoit, MI). We design and manufacture industrial
> > equipment from clean room enviroments to foundry
> > equipment. We often get jobs that are too complex
> or
> > technical for other companies and we have designed
> > laser welders,camera & optics, specialty machines
> for
> > fuel cell processes, robotic cells of all sorts,
> > secondary plastics equipment, entire plant lines,
> Mig,
> > tig, laser cells, non- destruct inspection equip,
> > material handling etc., etc., etc. We do small
> tools
> > such as operator assisted tools for assembly
> plants,
> > to complete manufacturing lines & engineering
> ($110M).
> > Many of these industries require a large amount of
> > R&D.
> >
> > I have been doing alot of R&D, for the design I am
> > working on for (2) one person subs, that I plan to
> > build and certify together. The subs can be
> operated
> > in a "connected" mode, or detached, operating both
> > together in a "buddy-system" fashion, like SCUBA
> for
> > safety.
> >
> > I started out as a machinist in High School, where
> I
> > took 1st in the state every year; I was a project
> > leader (for a company)when I was still in High
> School;
> > I became a fixture builder, then Model Maker (that
> > industry went out), CNC operator, CAD operator,
> > designer, Special Machines & Gages, BIW process
> and
> > tooling.
> >
> > I don't do the hands on as much anymore - I havn't
> > been on Catia or UG for years, but I can find my
> way
> > around Mech-Desktop though.
> >
> > I'm not bragging or preaching to this group - I
> know
> > there is a ton of knowledge and talent in this
> group.
> > I just wanted to let you know that I am not a
> complete
> > idiot, and that I have been around a shop,
> wrenches,
> > torches and prints for my entire life, and that
> this
> > print sucked (hard).
> >
> > If anyone wants a copy, I will scan it (into
> several
> > (4?) sections) and give them to you free; but
> please
> > do not purchase this as you will be disapointed.
> >
> > Sorry for the negative email.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > David Cutajar
> > DJC Engineering
> >
> > davecutajar@yahoo.com
>