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RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buying a propeller



Dean,

This is probably the best set of equations you will find to approximate a prop for your boat.  Dave Gerr’s book is great for choosing props for surface craft but in personal communications with him, he will be the first to note that he knows little about subs (and as such doesn’t allow sub designs for course submissions in the Westlawn naval architecture program).  Subs have different restraints to theoretical max speed than surface craft; the waterline length is not such an overriding factor in speed calculations.  Y.N Kormilitsin’s and O.A. Khalizev’s Theory of Submarine Design have an excellent section on submarine performance starting on page 195 and suggest (with formulas) that hull submerged draft to beam ratios along with wetted surface area are probably the performance limiting factors for our type of subs.

 

Alec’s calculations will probably put you into the ball park and then like many boats, if you want to optimize performance you have to start playing with prop swaps.

R/Jay

 

Respectfully,

Jay K. Jeffries

Andros Is., Bahamas

 

As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand.

    -Josh Billings

 

 

 

From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Recon1st@aol.com
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:16 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buying a propeller

 

Alec thanks much I am no longer totally ignorant. Great info

 

Dean

 

In a message dated 2/9/2009 3:48:23 P.M. Central Standard Time, Alec.Smyth@compuware.com writes:

Dean,

 

In general the idea is to use a large diameter prop turning at a slow speed, it'll produce more thrust and be much more efficient. According to Dave Gerr in "The propeller handbook", the ideal is for the prop diameter to be one third the beam of the vessel. To give you an idea how much of a difference diameter makes, I'll quantify with an example: 1 HP at the shaft could produce 39.5 lbs of thrust with a 6" prop, or 62.7 lbs with a 12" prop. Does it really have to be direct drive, or could you use say belt drive to slow down the rpms?

 

Just to recap the design steps I went through to answer this same question on my own project, they were:

 

1) Determine largest diameter prop I can fit. In my case the limiting factors were interference with the surface, and the desired draft. My prop ended up being 16".

 

2) Next, calculate the most efficient RPM. You can get it from:

 

rpm^0.6 = (632.7 * SHP^0.2)/D where

 

SHP = shaft horse power

D = prop diameter

 

In my case, I estimated SHP to be 90% of the motor's rated continuous power, which led to 652 rpm.

 

 

3) Estimate propeller slip. Your prop isn't slicing through a solid, so it'll slip. How much depends largely on how streamlined the boat is. The normal practice in ship design is to base this number on comparison to similar vessels -- not easy to do for a sub, where I had no data at all. For a displacement hull surface vessel a normal value might be 45%. I increased that to 60% slip, because a PSUB is far less hydrodynamic than your typical boat. However my value is a total guesstimate.

 

 

 

4) Estimate the vessel's theoretical speed.

 

Speed in knots = [10.665 / (Displacement in lbs / SHP)^0.3]*(waterline length in feet)^0.5

 

Translate to mph multiplying by 1.15

 

In my example, I get 5.68 mph

 

 

 

5) Calculate the ideal propeller pitch

 

Pitch in inches = mph * 1056 / (rpm * (100 - % slip)/100)

 

In my case, pitch = 22.9"

 

Now, because I'm planning to use a Kort nozzle, I reduced the pitch quite significantly, to 18. Then I went on eBay, and found a Michigan Prop 16 x 18. I can't remember how much it cost me, I got it a while back -- but it was probably small change compared to what they cost new. Another detail, it's what they call a "cupped" prop which refers to the shape of the blades. Cupped are most efficient for slow speeds, so that's an added bonus.

 

I realize several parameters are estimates. My objective is to get into the ballpark of the correct values, and I do fully expect to play around with different pulley combinations to fine tune shaft speed.

 

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

Alec

 

 

 


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From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Recon1st@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 14:08
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] buying a propeller

I am in need of choosing a propeller.

Any suggestions on what to consider? cost is for sure a factor.

I am not gear reducing at this time so I am going to be in the

1500 rpm range. I will be kicking up to 12hp and should have a range

between 1 and 2000 rpm.

My overall dry weight should be about 6000lb

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

Dean

 

 

 


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