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RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Important PSUBS Info - Please Read
Hi Jon,
Very well put.
I would have benefited just as much from P-Subs if it were a professional
organization and the growth you have pointed out that it has achieved is
indicative of where it is likely to head. While it is great to hear all the
chit-chat it is the information that I would prefer to have access to. The
Chit chat is relationship building between P-subbers and is great for the
friendships that evolve from it but it does clog up the emails on a new
mobile, blackberry or computer. To collate the information would be just
great but it would cost. Something a Subscription would allow for
hopefully. As you point out it could have a chat forum with a link to P-subs
that continues without cost and someone may wish to do that. I will stick
with P-subs and be happy to pay for a subscription. Hopefully P-Subs will
be able to do its own monthly or annual magazine in time. Even to get it to
that stage with the costs involved it will still take a lot of unpaid hours
of dedication from someone. I take my hat off to you and Ray for what you
have achieved. Offers from people to donate are great but unpredictable and
in time the appreciation of what has been done diminishes. There are no
Golf clubs, Yacht clubs, etc that have risen to anything which rely on
donations. Bring on the subscriptions it is time for a change. Small price
to pay for the information received. What started for me as a 3 month
design of a sub and then a 6 month build has turned into an 18 month design
and 12 month build. One of the biggest resources is advertising space that
I don't think you have looked at yet and is a real need for P-subbers who
are getting into the game. Plastics companies, Sub consulting Engineers,
Hardware suppliers, consumables suppliers, Machining services, Steel
suppliers. Sponsors for the Web page / News Letters. While you list
suppliers for free at the moment I don't think you should. These companies
should be approached for "subscriptions" or advertising space. One of the
biggest helps would also be to have a country representative for P-Subs
where numbers start to warrant it. They can suss out the local suppliers
that all could benefit from. Another source of income could be for a
register of proven designs of various components such as Domes, Windows,
Hatch locking mechanisms, thru hull connectors, motors, etc. Granted these
are available with K250 and K350 plans but there are a number of "original"
designs coming through. Yes there will be a bit of a backlash from those who
want no change but the fact of the matter is, as you have pointed out,
things have changed, are changing and will change. Some of the feedback
from other p-subbers is good in trying to keep it all simple. What you
proposed did fill me with some consternation as to how it would work.
However, you guys have thought through it all and no doubt spent many hours
discussing it so hopefully it will work. Lets keep positive on it and
support the change, igve some positive feedback and tune it so that it comes
out a better animal. Thanks to all the P-subbers who have helped me in my
search for info. Hugh NZ.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace
Sent: 26 January 2009 08:36
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Important PSUBS Info - Please Read
Thank you all for your comments. We certainly have stirred things up a
bit I guess.
I thoroughly understand your concerns as they have been expressed, and I
think we have taken precautions to create a membership that does not
unreasonably isolate or exclude anyone, is not elitist (newbie to expert
are welcome), does not restrict people from researching information, and
arguably does not restrict anyone from participating in online
discussions. If it were our intent to form an exclusive membership of
elitists, it would be very easy to do. I would simply clear the mailing
list, only add the people we wanted to participate, and then block
everyone else by ensuring I was the only one who could add people to the
list instead of letting people register on their own. Clearly we have
not taken this approach and I would ask that you all give it a chance,
and let's see how it unfolds. As we find things that don't work, we can
change them.
Regarding finances, we truly appreciate the offers that most of you have
made to donate money and support us. For those who have stated they
were willing to donate money to myself and Ray for operational costs, we
ask that you join PSUBS instead and support the organization through
your membership. From a business perspective it is better for any
revenue to go through PSUBS LLC, than myself or Ray privately. Your
hard earned money is better accounted for that way, and the government
is happier that way. It is not only a more legitimate way of doing
business, but from a financial perspective it will eventually lead to
much better budgeting and forecasting abilities than our current method
which goes something like, "hey Ray, how many t-shirts do you think
we'll sell this year?"
Trying to secure some revenue for operations is only one reason for
creating a membership, and from my perspective not the most important
one. More important is the additional structure and legitimacy that
membership will provide the organization so we can secure recognition
and respect within the industry we are part of. This is the next step
from just being "a group of guys who talk about submarines", to an
organization that has influence and can draw the attention of industry
peers as we grow. As a legitimate organization we at least have a
footing to work with when we need, or want, the attention of our
industry peers or potential speakers for our conventions. This is
hardly a threatening proposition. A "group of guys casually talking" in
a forum has little influence and legitimacy to anyone other than the
individuals participating in the discussion, and even that is dependent
upon the level of respect they hold for each other. There is
unquestionably much more potential for any one individual to be excluded
from the discussion between a "group of guys talking" in an unorganized
forum, than within a formal organization such as we are proposing. It's
somewhat ironic to note that the accolades numerous people have extended
regarding their experience with PSUBS over the years is due to the fact
that we have operated it in nearly the identical format that we now
simply want to formalize.
If all that is needed is a central location where a group of guys can go
to share information about their submarine, then PSUBS.ORG has fulfilled
its initial purpose and at the same time outlived it's usefulness. In
1997 when we formed PSUBS, the resources available today on the Internet
did not exist. Free websites, free email, free mailing lists, free
groups, and free web forums were simply not available. In 1997, our
domain name cost us $100/year. Today you can get domain names for about
$5.00 a year. We needed people with systems and software expertise, who
had good reliable hardware available, and a good internet backbone.
Today, with the free resources available on the Internet, there's no
requirement for any of that and no need for Ray or myself to host a
website or maintain a mailing list and web forum. Accordingly, there is
no need to donate money to Ray or myself for that level of service since
any one of you can open your own submarine list on a free server from
google or yahoo, and perform the same function. If all that is needed
is an informal group without structure, then we don't have to worry
about coordinating conventions, giving out awards, finding speakers, or
fronting money for expenses associated with them. Whenever the urge
hits someone, they can simply announce on the informal group list of
their choice that they are hosting a "sub-diving" weekend at their
particular location. Everyone who can make it, just finds a place to
stay where they can, and comes and goes as they please. You put your
photos up on Flickr, you put your video up on YouTube, and then simply
put links to the same in your messages to the group. You might have to
put up with advertisements on a free server, but you can always ask for
donations from the group and pay a fee so that the advertisements are
suppressed.
PSUBS.ORG has outgrown a single purpose charter that limits it as a
resource to meet other people interested in talking about home-built
submarines. It has exceeded that goal by any measurement and should be
allowed to grow into other areas that benefit us as a group rather than
solely as individuals. We will be well served as individuals if we
allow PSUBS to become an organization that can represent us as a group
and have both impact and influence on our industry peers. Additionally,
PSUBS has grown bigger than any one of us, including myself and Ray. It
has both the visibility and momentum to survive us into another
generation and should be organized to do exactly that. The concept of
having a formal membership is foreign to us, but in 12 years we have
come as far as we are ever going to get in our current form. PSUBS is
recognized worldwide, but you won't find ABS or ASME sitting at our
table, you won't find industry partnering with us, and you won't find
the Coast Guard, Navy, Federal or local governments willing to talk
about any concerns we might have, because we are just a "group of guys
who talk about submarines". Respect, recognition, and acceptance come
at the expense of some amount of structure and management. The
membership plan we have put in place is as non-exclusive as you will
find anywhere in regards to its impact on non-members.
For those who share our vision, we welcome you to join us as a member
and help propel PSUBS into new areas, while maintaining what we have
built over the past 12 years. For those who feel this new vision is not
worthy, you are welcome to continue using our non-member services as
they suit you, and monitor our progress in hopes you see value in our
vision at a future time. If we must part ways because you feel you can
do better by forming your own group and move in your own direction, we
wish you no ill-will and hope we can work together with you in the future.
Jon
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The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
from our organization.
If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
link below or send a blank email message to:
removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
our server receiving your request.
PSUBS.ORG
PO Box 53
Weare, NH 03281
603-529-1100
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