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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
Now that borders on the erotic. A dome view at 900 feet?
Oooohhhhhhhhhhhhh.
I'm aiming for something a little less abitious with mine. I've had my eye
on the Perry boats for decades.
I'm striving for a canopy view using an aircraft style construction (with
much thicker plexiglass). Despite being ambient (dry) there is still wave
action to consider (momentary sudden increases in pressure) Up here in the
Straight of Georgia we get 12 footers. Not to mention an over pressure
valve malfunction, sudden dives where the compensating regs can't keep up,
collisions, etc.
My heart went out to you when I saw that bare interior of your sub. Where
do you start . . . There's something about looking at someone else's design
and completing it that gives me the shakes. My own sub, no problem. My
design.
Well, one step at a time.
BTW, how do you plan on testing your hull strength?
Rick
ps: how long have you been on this chat line? I remember you from a few
years ago. Nice to "see" you again.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Secor" <wreckdiver@usadatanet.net>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
> When I took a ride on a Perry sub (PC-1803 ?) down in the Caymans to 900
feet,
> it was cool since I was sitting in the front which was a large plexiglass
dome
> nearly the same diameter as the inside of the sub. Don't remember how
thick it
> was but the view was breathtaking!
>
> Al Secor ARS: WA3PWX Scuba Instructor SSI PDIC TDI
> http://www.geocities.com/SubDiverI
>
>
>
> Quoting Rick and Marcia <empiricus@telus.net>:
>
> > Hi, Dan . . . your points are good ones. I reread my initial post and
> > realized I had forgotten to make the connection between a technically
capable
> > sub on the one hand and a more immersively (new word) capable sub on the
> > other.
> >
> > Without a doubt whichever boat we choose to design/build/use would have
to be
> > a competently executed project.
> >
> > I was attempting to say that unless a subber is experiencing his u/w
> > environment in a stimulating fashion, the chances of returning to that
> > environment become less likely. And an artist (that is technically
astute)
> > is usually more inclined to design something that responds to the
emotions
> > rather than the concept of simply being there. Clearly the physics
remains
> > the same.
> >
> > I understand the suspicions surrounding "canopies". I was referring
only to
> > compensated cockpits, not one-ats. I can just imagine a one-eighth inch
thick
> > Chipmunk canopy on a sub, even a wet one. Yikes.
> >
> > The SEE, BE PART OF, IMMERSE MYSELF INTO, ABSORB, BE SURROUNDED BY was
> > intended only to compare one type of sub with another, not scuba.
Skinny
> > dipping while diving is really the ultimate!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rick
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dan H.
> > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 6:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
> >
> >
> > Hi Rick and Mark,
> >
> > Rick,
> > I see many of your points, agree with some and disagree with others.
> > There is quite a difference in a ambient sub and a one atmosphere sub,
in the
> > levels of art and engineering acceptable. Other then having propulsion,
> > breathing air and a ballast system, they're different animals. Art can
have
> > a greater role in a ambient sub but don't let it get in the way of good
> > engineering.
> >
> > I agree that a sub, and the experience, has to be comfortable and
> > interesting to make one want to come back for more, i.e. keep it in
service.
> > That part of a design, I don't consider art though. You got it correct
in
> > your second posting. Good ergonomics! That's far more in the
engineering
> > field then art.
> >
> > For a small sub, of course the view is important. The better the
> > view........ Well the BETTER THE VIEW!!!! That's probably the most
important
> > sense that gets stimulated in a sub dive. What you can see. If we
could all
> > have a window as Jules Vern Nautilus did, that would be great, but it's
not
> > possible. There are budget constraints that limit the type of view port
and
> > physical constraints governed both by laws of physics and the properties
of
> > the materials available. Again, engineering related topics. Granted in
a
> > ambient pressure sub they aren't as great of a factor.
> >
> > There is a reason most subs look similar. It's the practical design
that
> > is practical to build at an acceptable cost. To dream as an artist
isn't
> > going to get a sub built, as you alluded to. Granted, art is a great
thing.
> > It does sometimes inspire an engineer to build something he would have
never
> > though of, but it's the engineer that gets it done. I think we agree
there.
> >
> > When I hear someone describe a sub with a canopy, I get suspicious.
The
> > word canopy brings to mind a sleek streamlined Plexiglas enclosure like
on a
> > jet fighter aircraft. This may be fine for a airplane but it's more of
an
> > artists description then an engineers description of a view port that is
> > holding back many pounds of water pressure or many pounds of air
pressure and
> > be built on a P-sub budget.
> >
> > You also wrote: I want to SEE, BE PART OF, IMMERSE MYSELF INTO,
ABSORB,
> > BE SURROUNDED BY the first hundred feet Then why do it in a sub? Your
a
> > diver! The only way to get more absorbed in your surroundings then that
is
> > skinny dipping! Why a sub?
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
> > Mark,
> > One of my driving forces that keep me going through the three and a
half
> > years of construction was the wanting to "see what's down there."
That's one
> > of the factors in me deciding on a sub but the challenge of the build
was
> > still greater. I already restored a car and was half of an airplane
build
> > along with countless other projects. The sub was something I pondered
for
> > eighteen years and it was time.
> >
> > Also, I think Rick and I agree on most points. We're just looking at
it
> > from two different angles.
> > Dan H.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mark
> > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 5:20 AM
> > Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
> >
> >
> > I'm afraid I have to agree with Rick. A dry ambient pressure sub
suits MY
> > needs also. I agree that for the engineers out there, there must be a
certain
> > pleasure in designing and building a sub and it is a great achievement,
but
> > if your not interested in what is under the ocean wouldn't your time be
> > better spent designing a car or plane or something you are actually
> > interested in
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Rick and
Marcia
> > Sent: 23 September 2004 06:36
> > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Dan & all . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > I liked your response. Let's look a little further . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding your post, we are, in fact, in agreement. Here are some
quotes
> > from my own post:
> >
> >
> >
> > "Unfortunately, artists don't (usually) make good builders"
> >
> > "a dry, ambient pressure boat suits my needs perfectly"
(emphasis on
> > MY)
> >
> > "The engineering mentalities will get their boats built. The
rest of
> > us with much prettier ideas . . . well, we'll see you at the
> > dock."
> >
> >
> >
> > Just to clarify, if a builder/user relegates his/her design to the
> > technical aspects of engineering, and ignores the engineering of the
> > human/machine interface, it is to their peril.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, for those unfamiliar with the field, engineering is simply one
of
> > the most creative professions out there. I'm putting emphasis here on
human
> > engineering (ergonomics).
> >
> >
> >
> > More than just using the proper coloured lights in an instrument
panel,
> > it also includes the measure of stimulus in the brain's pleasure
centres.
> > The intensity, consistency, and repeatability of pleasure derived from
an
> > experience (diving in a sub) will determine whether the subject (the sub
> > pilot) will return for more. Like the rats whose pleasure centres were
> > electrically stimulated whenever they pressed a lever (they collapsed
from
> > "pleasure"), the sub pilot will return for more if his/her pleasure
centres
> > are stimulated appropriately.
> >
> >
> >
> > It begs the question: Do we want a creation that we will enjoy?
That we
> > will have a long lasting experience with? "Enjoyment" and "long lasting
> > experience" are, as illustrated above, quantifiable and expressed in the
> > final product in a tangible form: Whether the user continues to use the
> > product or shelves it to go onto something better.
> >
> >
> >
> > So, the above is really a fancy-pants way of saying you need to
enjoy the
> > sub piloting or you won't repeat the experience. And why won't you
repeat
> > it? The experience WAS NOT VIVID ENOUGH.
> >
> >
> >
> > Rick Lucertini
> >
> > Vancouver, Canada
> >
> >
> >
> > p.s.: before becoming an artsy I studied engineering. I'm
intimately
> > familiar with the process of quantifying human needs.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
> >
> >
> >
> > Rick,
> >
> >
> >
> > Sure, esthetics are important in build almost anything the eye can
see,
> > but it's the engineering that gets the job done. The artist part in a
sub is
> > way back there somewhere. Behind a whole bunch of engineers.
> >
> >
> >
> > If not for the engineering, we'd all be OOOH-ing and AAAH-ing over
> > pictures and sculptures of subs and none of us would have anything to
> > actually dive in.
> >
> >
> >
> > ||| Rick: Agreed :-)
> >
> >
> >
> > Heck, if all you want is a panoramic view of the first 100 feet,
SCUBA
> > dive and spend your sub money on a towel to dry off with afterwards.
> >
> >
> >
> > ||| I've been diving since 1974. A submarine redefines the
> > underwater experience. I've been under ice, worked commercially,
> > night/wreck/current/shark/manta rayed and fed wolf eels by hand and
more.
> > All truly wonderful but, even that gets trite (for me) after a while.
Maybe
> > I'm jaded.
> >
> >
> >
> > The appeal of a sub is either to go past SCUBA depth, and for a
longer
> > time then SCUBA allows, or dive and stay in a dry atmosphere.
> >
> >
> >
> > ||| For those with those priorities these assumptions are true.
> >
> >
> >
> > if you want to dive without getting wet and live to do it again,
you
> > better be a damn good engineer first off.
> >
> >
> >
> > ||| Ditto
> >
> >
> >
> > Truth be told, most people that actually build a sub do it for the
> > challenge of the build
> >
> >
> >
> > ||| Again, another assumption. I'm the parent of three young
> > children. I don't need more challenges! What motivates me is simply
the
> > passion whose genesis was derived from a story I read in 1966.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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