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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
When I took a ride on a Perry sub (PC-1803 ?) down in the Caymans to 900 feet,
it was cool since I was sitting in the front which was a large plexiglass dome
nearly the same diameter as the inside of the sub. Don't remember how thick it
was but the view was breathtaking!
Al Secor ARS: WA3PWX Scuba Instructor SSI PDIC TDI
http://www.geocities.com/SubDiverI
Quoting Rick and Marcia <empiricus@telus.net>:
> Hi, Dan . . . your points are good ones. I reread my initial post and
> realized I had forgotten to make the connection between a technically capable
> sub on the one hand and a more immersively (new word) capable sub on the
> other.
>
> Without a doubt whichever boat we choose to design/build/use would have to be
> a competently executed project.
>
> I was attempting to say that unless a subber is experiencing his u/w
> environment in a stimulating fashion, the chances of returning to that
> environment become less likely. And an artist (that is technically astute)
> is usually more inclined to design something that responds to the emotions
> rather than the concept of simply being there. Clearly the physics remains
> the same.
>
> I understand the suspicions surrounding "canopies". I was referring only to
> compensated cockpits, not one-ats. I can just imagine a one-eighth inch thick
> Chipmunk canopy on a sub, even a wet one. Yikes.
>
> The SEE, BE PART OF, IMMERSE MYSELF INTO, ABSORB, BE SURROUNDED BY was
> intended only to compare one type of sub with another, not scuba. Skinny
> dipping while diving is really the ultimate!
>
> Cheers,
> Rick
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dan H.
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 6:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
>
>
> Hi Rick and Mark,
>
> Rick,
> I see many of your points, agree with some and disagree with others.
> There is quite a difference in a ambient sub and a one atmosphere sub, in the
> levels of art and engineering acceptable. Other then having propulsion,
> breathing air and a ballast system, they're different animals. Art can have
> a greater role in a ambient sub but don't let it get in the way of good
> engineering.
>
> I agree that a sub, and the experience, has to be comfortable and
> interesting to make one want to come back for more, i.e. keep it in service.
> That part of a design, I don't consider art though. You got it correct in
> your second posting. Good ergonomics! That's far more in the engineering
> field then art.
>
> For a small sub, of course the view is important. The better the
> view........ Well the BETTER THE VIEW!!!! That's probably the most important
> sense that gets stimulated in a sub dive. What you can see. If we could all
> have a window as Jules Vern Nautilus did, that would be great, but it's not
> possible. There are budget constraints that limit the type of view port and
> physical constraints governed both by laws of physics and the properties of
> the materials available. Again, engineering related topics. Granted in a
> ambient pressure sub they aren't as great of a factor.
>
> There is a reason most subs look similar. It's the practical design that
> is practical to build at an acceptable cost. To dream as an artist isn't
> going to get a sub built, as you alluded to. Granted, art is a great thing.
> It does sometimes inspire an engineer to build something he would have never
> though of, but it's the engineer that gets it done. I think we agree there.
>
> When I hear someone describe a sub with a canopy, I get suspicious. The
> word canopy brings to mind a sleek streamlined Plexiglas enclosure like on a
> jet fighter aircraft. This may be fine for a airplane but it's more of an
> artists description then an engineers description of a view port that is
> holding back many pounds of water pressure or many pounds of air pressure and
> be built on a P-sub budget.
>
> You also wrote: I want to SEE, BE PART OF, IMMERSE MYSELF INTO, ABSORB,
> BE SURROUNDED BY the first hundred feet Then why do it in a sub? Your a
> diver! The only way to get more absorbed in your surroundings then that is
> skinny dipping! Why a sub?
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mark,
> One of my driving forces that keep me going through the three and a half
> years of construction was the wanting to "see what's down there." That's one
> of the factors in me deciding on a sub but the challenge of the build was
> still greater. I already restored a car and was half of an airplane build
> along with countless other projects. The sub was something I pondered for
> eighteen years and it was time.
>
> Also, I think Rick and I agree on most points. We're just looking at it
> from two different angles.
> Dan H.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 5:20 AM
> Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
>
>
> I'm afraid I have to agree with Rick. A dry ambient pressure sub suits MY
> needs also. I agree that for the engineers out there, there must be a certain
> pleasure in designing and building a sub and it is a great achievement, but
> if your not interested in what is under the ocean wouldn't your time be
> better spent designing a car or plane or something you are actually
> interested in
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Rick and Marcia
> Sent: 23 September 2004 06:36
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
>
>
>
> Hi, Dan & all . . .
>
>
>
> I liked your response. Let's look a little further . . .
>
>
>
> Regarding your post, we are, in fact, in agreement. Here are some quotes
> from my own post:
>
>
>
> "Unfortunately, artists don't (usually) make good builders"
>
> "a dry, ambient pressure boat suits my needs perfectly" (emphasis on
> MY)
>
> "The engineering mentalities will get their boats built. The rest of
> us with much prettier ideas . . . well, we'll see you at the
> dock."
>
>
>
> Just to clarify, if a builder/user relegates his/her design to the
> technical aspects of engineering, and ignores the engineering of the
> human/machine interface, it is to their peril.
>
>
>
> BTW, for those unfamiliar with the field, engineering is simply one of
> the most creative professions out there. I'm putting emphasis here on human
> engineering (ergonomics).
>
>
>
> More than just using the proper coloured lights in an instrument panel,
> it also includes the measure of stimulus in the brain's pleasure centres.
> The intensity, consistency, and repeatability of pleasure derived from an
> experience (diving in a sub) will determine whether the subject (the sub
> pilot) will return for more. Like the rats whose pleasure centres were
> electrically stimulated whenever they pressed a lever (they collapsed from
> "pleasure"), the sub pilot will return for more if his/her pleasure centres
> are stimulated appropriately.
>
>
>
> It begs the question: Do we want a creation that we will enjoy? That we
> will have a long lasting experience with? "Enjoyment" and "long lasting
> experience" are, as illustrated above, quantifiable and expressed in the
> final product in a tangible form: Whether the user continues to use the
> product or shelves it to go onto something better.
>
>
>
> So, the above is really a fancy-pants way of saying you need to enjoy the
> sub piloting or you won't repeat the experience. And why won't you repeat
> it? The experience WAS NOT VIVID ENOUGH.
>
>
>
> Rick Lucertini
>
> Vancouver, Canada
>
>
>
> p.s.: before becoming an artsy I studied engineering. I'm intimately
> familiar with the process of quantifying human needs.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick
>
>
>
> Rick,
>
>
>
> Sure, esthetics are important in build almost anything the eye can see,
> but it's the engineering that gets the job done. The artist part in a sub is
> way back there somewhere. Behind a whole bunch of engineers.
>
>
>
> If not for the engineering, we'd all be OOOH-ing and AAAH-ing over
> pictures and sculptures of subs and none of us would have anything to
> actually dive in.
>
>
>
> ||| Rick: Agreed :-)
>
>
>
> Heck, if all you want is a panoramic view of the first 100 feet, SCUBA
> dive and spend your sub money on a towel to dry off with afterwards.
>
>
>
> ||| I've been diving since 1974. A submarine redefines the
> underwater experience. I've been under ice, worked commercially,
> night/wreck/current/shark/manta rayed and fed wolf eels by hand and more.
> All truly wonderful but, even that gets trite (for me) after a while. Maybe
> I'm jaded.
>
>
>
> The appeal of a sub is either to go past SCUBA depth, and for a longer
> time then SCUBA allows, or dive and stay in a dry atmosphere.
>
>
>
> ||| For those with those priorities these assumptions are true.
>
>
>
> if you want to dive without getting wet and live to do it again, you
> better be a damn good engineer first off.
>
>
>
> ||| Ditto
>
>
>
> Truth be told, most people that actually build a sub do it for the
> challenge of the build
>
>
>
> ||| Again, another assumption. I'm the parent of three young
> children. I don't need more challenges! What motivates me is simply the
> passion whose genesis was derived from a story I read in 1966.
>
>
>
>
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