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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick



Hi, Dan . . . your points are good ones.  I reread my initial post and realized I had forgotten to make the connection between a technically capable sub on the one hand and a more immersively (new word) capable sub on the other.
 
Without a doubt whichever boat we choose to design/build/use would have to be a competently executed project.
 
I was attempting to say that unless a subber is experiencing his u/w environment in a stimulating fashion, the chances of returning to that environment become less likely.  And an artist (that is technically astute) is usually more inclined to design something that responds to the emotions rather than the concept of simply being there.  Clearly the physics remains the same.
 
I understand the suspicions surrounding "canopies".  I was referring only to compensated cockpits, not one-ats. I can just imagine a one-eighth inch thick Chipmunk canopy on a sub, even a wet one. Yikes.
 
The SEE, BE PART OF, IMMERSE MYSELF INTO, ABSORB, BE SURROUNDED BY was intended only to compare one type of sub with another, not scuba.  Skinny dipping while diving is really the ultimate!
 
Cheers,
Rick
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan H.
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick

Hi Rick and Mark,
 
Rick,
 I see many of your points, agree with some and disagree with others.  There is quite a difference in a ambient sub and a one atmosphere sub, in the levels of art and engineering acceptable.  Other then having propulsion, breathing air and a ballast system, they're different animals.  Art can have a greater role in a ambient sub but don't let it get in the way of good engineering.
 
I agree that a sub, and the experience, has to be comfortable and interesting to make one want to come back for more, i.e. keep it in service.  That part of a design, I don't consider art though.  You got it correct in your second posting. Good ergonomics!  That's far more in the engineering field then art. 
 
For a small sub, of course the view is important.  The better the view........ Well the BETTER THE VIEW!!!!  That's probably the most important sense that gets stimulated in a sub dive.  What you can see.  If we could all have a window as Jules Vern Nautilus did, that would be great, but it's not possible.  There are budget constraints that limit the type of view port and physical constraints governed both by laws of physics and the properties of the materials available.  Again, engineering related topics.  Granted in a ambient pressure sub they aren't as great of a factor.
 
There is a reason most subs look similar.  It's the practical design that is practical to build at an acceptable cost.  To dream as an artist isn't going to get a sub built, as you alluded to.  Granted, art is a great thing.  It does sometimes inspire an engineer to build something he would have never though of, but it's the engineer that gets it done.  I think we agree there.
 
When I hear someone describe a sub with a canopy, I get suspicious.  The word canopy brings to mind a sleek streamlined Plexiglas enclosure like on a jet fighter aircraft.  This may be fine for a airplane but it's more of an artists description then an engineers description of a view port that is holding back many pounds of water pressure or many pounds of air pressure and be built on a P-sub budget. 
 
You also wrote:   I want to SEE, BE PART OF, IMMERSE MYSELF INTO, ABSORB, BE SURROUNDED BY the first hundred feet   Then why do it in a sub?  Your a diver!  The only way to get more absorbed in your surroundings then that is skinny dipping!  Why a sub?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark,
One of my driving forces that keep me going through the three and a half years of construction was the wanting to "see what's down there."  That's one of the factors in me deciding on a sub but the challenge of the build was still greater.  I already restored a car and was half of an airplane build along with countless other projects.  The sub was something I pondered for eighteen years and it was time.  
 
Also, I think Rick and I agree on most points.  We're just looking at it from two different angles.
Dan H. 
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 5:20 AM
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick

I?m afraid I have to agree with Rick. A dry ambient pressure sub suits MY needs also. I agree that for the engineers out there, there must be a certain pleasure in designing and building a sub and it is a great achievement, but if your not interested in what is under the ocean wouldn?t your time be better spent designing a car or plane or something you are actually interested in

 

Mark

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Rick and Marcia
Sent: 23 September 2004 06:36
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick

 

Hi, Dan & all . . .

 

I liked your response.  Let's look a little further . . .

 

Regarding your post, we are, in fact, in agreement.  Here are some quotes from my own post:

 

    "Unfortunately, artists don't (usually) make good builders"

    "a dry, ambient pressure boat suits my needs perfectly" (emphasis on MY)

    "The engineering mentalities will get their boats built.  The rest of us with much prettier ideas . . . well, we'll see you at the             dock."

 

Just to clarify, if a builder/user relegates his/her design to the technical aspects of engineering, and ignores the engineering of the human/machine interface, it is to their peril.

 

BTW, for those unfamiliar with the field, engineering is simply one of the most creative professions out there.  I'm putting emphasis here on human engineering (ergonomics). 

 

More than just using the proper coloured lights in an instrument panel, it also includes the measure of stimulus in the brain's pleasure centres.  The intensity, consistency, and repeatability of pleasure derived from an experience (diving in a sub) will determine whether the subject (the sub pilot) will return for more.  Like the rats whose pleasure centres were electrically stimulated whenever they pressed a lever (they collapsed from "pleasure"), the sub pilot will return for more if his/her pleasure centres are stimulated appropriately.

 

It begs the question: Do we want a creation that we will enjoy?  That we will have a long lasting experience with?  "Enjoyment" and "long lasting experience" are, as illustrated above, quantifiable and expressed in the final product in a tangible form: Whether the user continues to use the product or shelves it to go onto something better.

 

So, the above is really a fancy-pants way of saying you need to enjoy the sub piloting or you won't repeat the experience.  And why won't you repeat it?  The experience WAS NOT VIVID ENOUGH.

 

Rick Lucertini

Vancouver, Canada

 

p.s.: before becoming an artsy I studied engineering.  I'm intimately familiar with the process of quantifying human needs.

 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

 

Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I Disagree Rick

 

Rick,

 

Sure, esthetics are important in build almost anything the eye can see, but it's the engineering that gets the job done.  The artist part in a sub is way back there somewhere.  Behind a whole bunch of engineers.

 

If not for the engineering, we'd all be OOOH-ing and AAAH-ing over pictures and sculptures of subs and none of us would have anything to actually dive in.

 

|||    Rick: Agreed  :-)

 

Heck, if all you want is a panoramic view of the first 100 feet, SCUBA dive and spend your sub money on a towel to dry off with afterwards.

 

|||    I've been diving since 1974.  A submarine redefines the underwater experience.  I've been under ice, worked commercially, night/wreck/current/shark/manta rayed and fed wolf eels by hand and more.  All truly wonderful but, even that gets trite (for me) after a while.  Maybe I'm jaded.

 

The appeal of a sub is either to go past SCUBA depth, and for a longer time then SCUBA allows, or dive and stay in a dry atmosphere.

 

|||    For those with those priorities these assumptions are true.

 

if you want to dive without getting wet and live to do it again, you better be a damn good engineer first off.

 

|||    Ditto

 

Truth be told, most people that actually build a sub do it for the challenge of the build

 

|||    Again, another assumption.  I'm the parent of three young children.  I don't need more challenges!  What motivates me is simply the passion whose genesis was derived from a story I read in 1966.