Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Building a psub for sale?

["Herve" <caribsub@coqui.net>]

Carsten
In the US there is a tendency to sue for anything.yes
In EU less, more because the same suit would take decades before it gets
finished but
basically it is the same laws but access to the courts in the US is much
easier.
In France it took me 7 years to win against a manufacturer

 If I purchase -here- a scuba gear complete by a dealer, means the bottle
> and the regulator as one unit - than he is responsible for the unit.
>
> If I purchase the bottle and the regulator seperate - and conected them
> for the dive - and for example the o-ring fails - I am the builder of
> the dive gear - and responsible for the hole unit function..
>
> If the bottle has a fracture and explode - the producer of the bottle is
> of course still responsible for - the bottle - but not for the hole dive
> gear - same with the producer of the regulator...
>
This is true.

I build my sub myself - my drawing all sign with my sign - but many
> parts
> of the sub are build by local companys here - they all give garantys
> for their work - for example the weldings.. but they never garantys
> that the construction works or that the hole unit work - because its my
> design and I am the producer..

this is true

So what ? If - your - sign is under all drawings of CSSX - and I build
> still the unit .. what do you think which person goes to prison if
> CSSX filled with thousands of galleons of hydrogen, oxygen, batteries
> and diesel oil.. and some signal rockets  - blows away the half harbour
> during the first test trials ???

depends of the cause of the explosion:
if you installed a non ignition proof electric device in your sub, you are
responsible, not the manufacturers  of the tanks of H and O2. in that case
a spark can ignate residual gases around
if H tanks ruptures, manufacturer is responsible. Storage of H2 is strickly
regulated, if something hapens because in the chain of design something was
overlooked, the one who failed to comply with existing regulations will be
responsible.
If a battery box collapses and somebody gets hurts because of chlorine gas
due to sea water and acid mixed, the manufacturer of the battery box is
responsible, not the battery manufacturer.
If someone drawns because the emergency hatch is stuck, the manufacturer of
the hatch is responsible.
most of the time if parts and equipment installed in a submarine are already
certified and are put to work within their specifications, the manufacturer
of these equipment will not be responsible. It is true that they will be
sued anyways but claims will be dismissed.
The designer who puts together all these equipment must verify that nothing
can go wrong.
if something can go wrong , it will (Murphy).
Now if you realease volontarly  in the atmosphere propane or H , and if
somebody gets hurt you will go to prison, US or EU. Tanks manufacturer is
not responsible for the use of its equipment.
It is most likely the builder of the sub to be liable in case of accident,
not the manufacturer of parts and equipment.
The user is liable if he operates the sub beyond the specifications or if he
fails to maintain his sub.
Sometimes people forget that USCG inspections are not to restrict
manufacturers but to ensure that users keep their vessel in compliance with
manufacturer specs. otherwise
users to save money would skip battery or tank replacements.


Through the remarkable design of your sub, I can see the time and the money
you put in your work , probably reviewing 1,000 times all safety factors and
failure simulations.
But I have also seen passionate psubers that are forgotting basic rules in
order to build cheap or sell a sub  and achieve their dreams.

A submarine is a life support vehicle, caution is a must and liability is
the guarantee that keeps off hazardous designs.
All manufacturers carry liability insurance, when a design is approved to my
experience it costs about $500 per mini sub or  rebreather.
a liability insurance covers you in case of a law suit, but it doesnt mean
you are going to loose.
In the us they sue you for burning your tongue in a coffe cup, imagine the
explosion of H in a marina !!
I agree that you are responsible for what you sign the point is that
plaintif will chalenge the understanding of user in order to sue ALSO the
manufacturer. The buyer alone is responsible only if he made a mistake. for
instance
There is a doctor here in miami he got 50 years in prison for a collision
with his speed boat, he killed 6 people, he was drung at the helm at 60 mile
per hour! he got what he deserved, you just cant harm others without
impunity. The boat manufacturer was sued as well, but case was dismissed.

Herve




----- Original Message -----
From: "Carsten Standfuß" <MerlinSub@t-online.de>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Building a psub for sale?


> Hi Herve, maybe you have another law in the US than here in EU ..
>
> If I purchase -here- a scuba gear complete by a dealer, means the bottle
> and the regulator as one unit - than he is responsible for the unit.
>
> If I purchase the bottle and the regulator seperate - and conected them
> for the dive - and for example the o-ring fails - I am the builder of
> the dive gear - and responsible for the hole unit function..
>
> If the bottle has a fracture and explode - the producer of the bottle is
> of course still responsible for - the bottle - but not for the hole dive
> gear - same with the producer of the regulator...
>
> I build my sub myself - my drawing all sign with my sign - but many
> parts
> of the sub are build by local companys here - they all give garantys
> for their work - for example the weldings.. but they never garantys
> that the construction works or that the hole unit work - because its my
> design and I am the producer..
>
> So what ? If - your - sign is under all drawings of CSSX - and I build
> still the unit .. what do you think which person goes to prison if
> CSSX filled with thousands of galleons of hydrogen, oxygen, batteries
> and diesel oil.. and some signal rockets  - blows away the half harbour
> during the first test trials ???
>
> Here in europe a person is still responsible for his sign.. and if he
> can not read or understand the contract he signed - it is his problem..
>
> Seems in the US the buyer is responsible - for nothing..
>
> Best regards - Carsten
>
>
> Herve schrieb:
> >
> > No that easy answear....it is just completely untrue
> > In case of accident , in a court of law this will make BOTH purchaser
and
> > builder liable, with the condition that purchaser has an understanding
of
> > the designs, that understanding would be the first thing to be
challenged by
> > plaintiff. Signing  a drawing or a design does not mean you understand
it.
> > If purchaser appears not having the understanding of the designs builder
> > will be totally liable no matter what.
> > However, building a vehicle for somebody that appears to be hazardous
WILL
> > NOT waive builder liability  in case of injury or death, and I challenge
> > anybody who claims the contrary to prove it.
> > In building a sub for somebody you should :
> > design a sub not trying to get away with liability. otherwise thay means
you
> > are not even sure of what you are doing and that looks even worst in
case of
> > claims.
> > Dont you think there are thousands of professional attorneys that are so
> > familiar with the "was'nt me" and know how to fight it.
> > Take a liability insurance, if the underwritter does not want to insure
you
> > that means there is a problem with your design.
> > Never take for granted whatever "advises" come from people who tell you
"yes
> > do it"
> > instead listen to people who tell you "dont do it" THEY will give you
the
> > guidelines.
> >  Herve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Carsten Standfuß" <MerlinSub@t-online.de>
> > To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 3:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Building a psub for sale?
> >
> > > It's a easy answer:
> > >
> > > Make shure that every construction drawing is signed by the future
> > > owner.
> > > So be shure thats it his design (on the papers).
> > >
> > > Make small contracts:
> > >
> > > 1.) Making a design for him
> > > 2.) Making a hull for him
> > > 3.) Making outfitting a hull for him
> > > 4.) test drive a boat for him
> > >
> > > 5.) If he order from you in small steps :
> > >
> > > 1a.) to make a design
> > > 2a.) make a hull
> > > 3a.) outfitting a hull
> > > 4a.) test the boat
> > >
> > > that means : HE is the projekt manager, THE owner, THEe builder - and
> > > responisable for all..
> > > Your are just the subcontractor..
> > >
> > > Carsten - I did it this way.. seems this will work in every country..
> > >
> > > Paul B schrieb:
> > > >
> > > > Situation: somebody wants to buy a psub. Somebody wants to build a
psub
> > and
> > > > sell it. Okay, two meet each other. Does the seller have to get
> > > > certifications/insurance on a psub prior to selling it? I mean, what
> > happens
> > > > if something happens to a person in a psub? Who would be liable? Or
> > should
> > > > two people just have an agreement signed about a psub being sold "as
> > is",
> > > > without any warranty or liability? It's kind of gray area of the law
to
> > me..
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely, Paul.
> > >
> > >
>
>