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RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] knife fish sub



In 2007 I made a video of the human powered sub races and there was a manta ray sub just like you describe, and it was an absolute work of art in terms of craftsmanship. See this segment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MayiqdNPPU
 
In the following segment, there was a sub from Bath University like the knife fish device, and somewhat similar. 
 
Both designs work, but it's very plain at the sub races that nothing matches the efficiency of a prop. The manta and Bath subs moved at very, very slow speeds compared to prop subs. Prop subs are segregated into a separate category due to the performance difference. Nonetheless, these other propulsion methods are a great way to get creative with the engineering.
 
 
thanks,

Alec   


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From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of ShellyDalg@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:39 AM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] knife fish sub

In a message dated 9/23/2009 2:37:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ojaivalleybeefarm@dslextreme.com writes:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17836-knifefish-robot-takes-to-the-wat
er.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news
Hi Brian. The "knifefish" mechanism looks interesting.
Early on in my submarine "dream" designs I had contemplated a propulsion system with a similar movement.
My design was inspired by the "wing" movements of a Manta Ray.
The concept was to have rubber skinned wings attached to flexible fiberglass struts that  would move up and down like a bird's wings.
The struts would be hinged perpendicular to the hull, one on each side, with thick rubber "skin" shaped like a Manta Ray wing trailing after the strut. The rubber wings would have run lengthwise down the side of the hull, like it is on the bottom of the video sub "Knifefish".
My thought was to power the struts movement up and down with 2 way hydraulic cylinders, driven by a pump and using shuttle valves. The simple up-down movement could be operated quite slowly and by using one side or the other perhaps some turning movements could be generated.
I never got to the "model" stage with that one, but it still intrigues me.
I think that a high speed rotating propeller is probably not very efficient at converting mechanical energy into thrust. Vance has often pointed out that the very large propellers turning slowly were better at pushing a sub than a smaller prop turning fast.
The concept of the water passing over a moving "foil" much like wind flows over a sail is at work here.
A large sail with light wind is more efficient than a small sail with higher wind speed.
Therefore a large propeller "foil" turning slowly could possibly generate more thrust for a given amount of applied energy than a smaller "foil" rotating very quickly.
Like any thrust device, the higher the speed of fluid travel across the foil, the greater the friction losses and dynamic resistance encountered at the foil's leading edge.
A very interesting concept.
Like many things though, the "devil's in the details".
A Manta Ray "wing" would stick out to the sides too far, making maneuvering in tight quarters problematic.
The mechanisms required to move the wings up and down are considerably more complicated than just running some wires to a high speed motor and prop.
Although a large "foil" type device may be more efficient in overall energy usage, it's complicated mechanism would require extensive fabrication which ultimately would lead to higher maintenance.
Looking at the twin cam drive mechanism on the "Knifefish" illustrates the complexity of such a system. Lots of parts to break there.
One advantage to having smaller props in several locations is the ability to provide thrust forces at that local area so maneuverability is improved even though overall energy efficiency is decreased.
Like on my sub, the two side thrusters should make it possible to rotate the sub on it's own horizontal axis by running one forward/one reversed. The "vectored" thrust of the dive plane rotation ( and rudder rotation ) adds  additional maneuvering capabilities.
Still, a very interesting concept. It would be fun to make a model of that and see what developed. It should be possible to measure the total energy applied and make a comparison of each design's efficiency in terms of speed developed per watt used.
Frank D.