Hey Glen,
I think I might of seen some pictures of that sub you sent a picture when it was on ebay for sale. Looks like your standard boat towing sea anchor. The short and curved shape of the K boats makes them more maneuverable in tight spaces, but as I've heard Dan H. mention it's hard to keep them on course since they turn on a dime like a white water kayak. So I guess you just have to pick what fits your most common operation needs, and design accordingly.
I had been designing a removable FPR wave piercing bow for towing ops, and had what I thought were some workable concepts, but that wouldn't of helped me much when I was on my own traveling longer distances with a small aluminum pressure hull covered outboard motor, unless I could dive with the removable towing fairing. That might give me some options for different diving conditions and having a mechanical arm under it.
I had been playing with an idea for having one or more mechanical arms hidden under the nose section of to bow of a torpedo shaped sub, and then when the arms where needed the nose would fold out with large C type hinges with the arms mounded in the folding out fairing assembly. Then the arms would be operated like a tethered WROV of which a closed circuit camera system would be apart of it. This would allow you to operate the arm(s) when seated in the conning tower with thin monitors in front of you. Just think of it of being like if the R300 had a mechanical manipulator under the bow FRP.
For now I'm still heavily leaning towards a solid none detachable during ops bow. I had long ago thought that if I did a refit of this K-250, that I would add long bow and stern fairings like are one the S101, but scaled down of course. But I do want a reasonable amount of close quarters mobility, so I gave it up. Greg Cotrell added and part of a canoe mounted upside down on the Trilobite K-250 now renamed the GreatWhite, that Scott Cassell is now running. So you put that tail with my new bow config. and you have more directional staibility then any K boat out there that I know of.
I'm also looking at the possibility of replacing most of the steel that is in the bow and stern weldments that hold the MBT's, rudders, etc. with Rhino coated aluminum tubing and what not, and then put the weight saved in doing this down lower into the two new K-350 type dual drop weights for more lifting force in a emergency. This would give me a better meta centric height before and after the emergency drop weights are released.
I had not thought of using the removable bow as a dock as well, interesting. If done, I would need to enlarge my concepts and and add deck space. I had thought of a tow-able docking assembly that could lift the sub out of water, much like is done with the Lake Diver K-350 tender pontoon boat.
You know that kissing a gal is highly dangerous, right Glen?
Cheers,
Szybowski
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wave Piercing Bow Options
Hi Brent
Thanks for the reply I think Dan 's machine is
awesome I have a pic of Persistence as my screensaver and James's dome
window is great because it also acts as a extra emergency exit but I just can
not see while operating next to a wreck moving myself from a position of control
to position myself at the bottom viewport to be able to operate a manipulator
arm a sudden surge could find myself crashing into steel plating or old
rigging I would like to operate my manipulator from my conning tower your idea
of poly carb could be the way but I believe a long fore mbt will be to my
disadvantage as it could get in the way of the items I would be manipulating
almost like your nose some times gets in the way when you kiss someone. Lately I
get so bored with diving without a mission I don't think I want to go through
all the trouble of building a submersible just to look at the scenery ."speaking
for myself'' if towing is going to be a problem could it not be possible to
build a detachable bow and fairing which could streamline the sub and also act
as a dock which is tethered to your towing vessel .The question I have does the
shape of the fore mbt of the K350 aid in underwater move ability . See
the pic of the attached sub .
All the best
Glen SA
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:30
PM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wave Piercing
Bow Options
Greetings Glen,
I've
not corresponded with you in a while. I've been wishing I had a fully
equipped shop to build all sorts of sub contraptions, and now I have it with
my relative and his partners shop. So you must be careful what you wish for.
Since now I'm up to my ears in training on all the equipment and finalizing
CAD assembly models so I can have the specs I need to whip um
up.
You've opened a big can of worms, and since many of us here like to
feed the fish that's not a bad thing. I wanted to have a wave piercing
bow on my K-250 even before I owned it, and since I want to be able to tow it,
and have it not be a sea anchor any more I'm planning on adding about 2.5' to
the existing bow and make a whole new front weldment to hold the front MBT, be
a crash guard and be able to attach every thing else.
I'm planning on
using the original from MBT as a starter mold plug to make a new one that has
a curved under bottom edge like how Dan did on Persistence. I had even
toyed with the idea of seeing if I could purchase one from Dan off his mold
since we have the same hull diameter. But I suspected that his tank holds more
then mine and that I would have to change the rear MBT as well to deal with
that. Also since I want a short wave piercing bow I'll keep the same upper
shape of the original from MBT, and add a free flooding upper front fairing
that is wave piercing and can house some lights that might turn out to look
like the lights on the Dodge Prowler.
I don't see an advantage of
splitting the front MBT if I protect it from spilling air easily in the
configuration Dan has figured out. If you plan to have a front dome
window that you can see upwards some like James has. I've seen seen
clear polycarbonate canoes that allow you to see the fish beneath you as you
cruise. So If you wanted you might be able to form or have formed for
you a acrylic or polycarbonate front MBT.
As for me I've pondered many
different configurations for cleaning up the lower front area of the sub hydro
dynamically. What I'm thinking of doing currently is to add three large
pieces of polycarbonate that are 3/8" or 1/2" thick that are each curved on
only one axis. One on each side and one on the bottom. this area would be free
flooding of course and would be in a some what wave piercing configuration.
All edges of the polycarbonate will be attached to FRP or SS flanges with
Sekaflex, and then the said flanges will be bolted to the new front weldment
that solidly supports all the flanges. This way I don't need to drill any
holes in the polycarbonate, which is where I've been told most cracks start on
boat wind shields and the like.
These lower front viewing fairings
will be a little bit like the clear front fairing that was supposed to be on
Alicia, and we can see on several of the luxury sub concepts on US
Submarines site, but mine are in three pieces and done without a compound
curve to please the KISS principle fans. ;}
I am considering installing
some syntactic foam in the the out most bow area to compensate for more weight
added to the bow. But since I'm also adding some weight in the stern in the
way of a additional rudder and two thruster, and the existing bow had about 40
lbs. of lead mounted in it, I shouldn't have to much trouble working it
out. I can see any changes to the CG an CB of my subs assembly model as
I make changes.
If I add a mechanical arm to the bow I may need to add
syntactic foam or a small pressure proof pod to balance things out. I have the
same basic issue for when I add the outboard motor to the stern that has a
small aluminum pressure hull over the engine.
In regards to the bottom
of the sub, it will have a flat plate between the skids that have two
slots in it for the K-350 type twin drop weights to come out. The Bottom of
the drop weights will be flush with said plate. Then so that plate will
not sit on the mud or sand on the bottom of a given water column, I'll add
three to four inches of black UHMW to the steel skids. This will also give me
more room to work under the sub.
Regards,
Szybowski
" A thinker sees his own actions as
experiments and questions--as attempts to find out something. Success and
failure are for him answers above all. "
~ Nietzsche
From: glenbrown@vodamail.co.za
To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Side Thruster
Options
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:05:08 +0100
Hi Brent
I am also planning on using Min Kota 's on my K350 I am
also thinking of splitting my front mbt for better view of my hydraulic
manipulator you got any thoughts.
All the best
glen south Africa
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Friday, June 12, 2009 12:23 AM
Subject:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Side Thruster Options
Greetings James,
I'm also planning
on installing small mostly off the shelf thrusters on the sides of my K boat
to reduce drag and simplify things. I've been planning on using 36
volt Minn Kota 101 saltwater thrusters, like Frank, and I believe Vance are
using and oil compensate them. Last I checked those thruster were
running $250 each with the speed controllers going for $150
each.
I'll have to check my notes, but I believe Karl Stanley
is using 6 of the 36 volt Minn Kota saltwater thruster that he has oil
compensated, and has used down to 2500 fsw. Two for vertical thrust
and four in the stern. Are you expecting to go that deep James. ;}
I
like the idea of using the existing flexible shafts on some motors that Alec
mentioned. I expected that I would clamp mine on in a similar manor as Frank
has done, since I'm not sure of the long term saltwater durability of my
favorite brand of duck tape.
I see the need to beef up the side thru
hulls, and was planning on looking closely at how Dan beefed his up. With
the new tangle guard configuration I'm planning, I don't expect the
thrusters will sustain any real damage unless the Euronaut or the like plays
to rough with my sub.
Regards,
Szybowski
>
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Subdate
> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:46:21
-0400
> From: Alec.Smyth@compuware.com
> To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>
> Hi James,
>
>
1. Do people just buy the standard Minn Kota outboard motor complete
>
with the bracket, leg, controls, handle, battery etc and just modify
the
> motor part? or can you get just the motor and prop on its
own?
>
> AS: You can buy just the parts you need cheaper than
the whole thing, I
> recommend www.trollingmotorparts.com.
>
>
> 2. Whats the through hull design? A straight forward twin
O ring
> through hull on the outboard shaft?
>
> AS: I
would not go with the standard pipe because it just isn't strong.
> In
fact some motors come with plastic pipes designed to be flexible so
>
the shaft bends when you hit something, rather than break off. On
the
> side thrusters, I've got heavy through-hulls. I did use the
stock pipe
> on the stern thruster, because that one doesn't go
through the hull. The
> through-hulls are just a SS bar stock with an
external shoulder to
> prevent the thing from being pushed in, and
bored to whatever minimum
> inside diameter you need for the cables
and potting. Do not just pot the
> cables, you have to put in solid
conductors so the pressure doesn't wick
> along the cable strands. I'd
recommend machining some vice flats on the
> through-hull too, for the
day you need to unscrew a thruster that's been
> on there a few years.
>
>
> 3. Compensation. Oil, ambient air pressure
regulator?
> I've had both but like oil compensation the best because
it's the
> simplest (not a single moving part). I just changed the oil
a couple of
> days ago. I expected it to be laden with carbon
deposits, but it came
> out looking like new despite being in there
for 4 years. Admittedly I
> put very few hours on the sub, but it
still surprised me that the oil
> came out looking as clear as the day
it went in. And yes, it WAS oil not
> water that came out...
>
> :)
>
> Alec
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