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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Important PSUBS Info - Please Read



Jon,

Thanks for the additional explanation. The changes your implementing, for the reasons you explained, make a lot more since then what I got from reading the short E-mail you first sent. I like the direction your going with PSUBS and agree with most of your thinking. As with any change, there will be tweaking as you progress.

I got a lot from PSUBS. My sub "Persistence" would still be a "future plan" if it weren't for finding PSUBS. What I got from reading your first announcement was the feeling that PSUBS was going to become a little too exclusive. An exclusive attitude by the site and it's members, when I first found it, would have most likely driven me off early on.

Your and Rays visions and efforts have done a lot to advance personal submarines. In total truth, I would not have built my sub if it weren't for PSUBS. I sat on the idea for eighteen years before finding PSUBS. I thank you and will continue to be around for a while.

I don't need a T-shirt, pins, or more cards to carry in my wallet, but I sure would like to see PSUBS live on and help others also. Where do I sign up?

Dan H.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Wallace" <jonw@psubs.org>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Important PSUBS Info - Please Read


Thank you all for your comments. We certainly have stirred things up a bit I guess.

I thoroughly understand your concerns as they have been expressed, and I think we have taken precautions to create a membership that does not unreasonably isolate or exclude anyone, is not elitist (newbie to expert are welcome), does not restrict people from researching information, and arguably does not restrict anyone from participating in online discussions. If it were our intent to form an exclusive membership of elitists, it would be very easy to do. I would simply clear the mailing list, only add the people we wanted to participate, and then block everyone else by ensuring I was the only one who could add people to the list instead of letting people register on their own. Clearly we have not taken this approach and I would ask that you all give it a chance, and let's see how it unfolds. As we find things that don't work, we can change them.

Regarding finances, we truly appreciate the offers that most of you have made to donate money and support us. For those who have stated they were willing to donate money to myself and Ray for operational costs, we ask that you join PSUBS instead and support the organization through your membership. From a business perspective it is better for any revenue to go through PSUBS LLC, than myself or Ray privately. Your hard earned money is better accounted for that way, and the government is happier that way. It is not only a more legitimate way of doing business, but from a financial perspective it will eventually lead to much better budgeting and forecasting abilities than our current method which goes something like, "hey Ray, how many t-shirts do you think we'll sell this year?"

Trying to secure some revenue for operations is only one reason for creating a membership, and from my perspective not the most important one. More important is the additional structure and legitimacy that membership will provide the organization so we can secure recognition and respect within the industry we are part of. This is the next step from just being "a group of guys who talk about submarines", to an organization that has influence and can draw the attention of industry peers as we grow. As a legitimate organization we at least have a footing to work with when we need, or want, the attention of our industry peers or potential speakers for our conventions. This is hardly a threatening proposition. A "group of guys casually talking" in a forum has little influence and legitimacy to anyone other than the individuals participating in the discussion, and even that is dependent upon the level of respect they hold for each other. There is unquestionably much more potential for any one individual to be excluded from the discussion between a "group of guys talking" in an unorganized forum, than within a formal organization such as we are proposing. It's somewhat ironic to note that the accolades numerous people have extended regarding their experience with PSUBS over the years is due to the fact that we have operated it in nearly the identical format that we now simply want to formalize.

If all that is needed is a central location where a group of guys can go to share information about their submarine, then PSUBS.ORG has fulfilled its initial purpose and at the same time outlived it's usefulness. In 1997 when we formed PSUBS, the resources available today on the Internet did not exist. Free websites, free email, free mailing lists, free groups, and free web forums were simply not available. In 1997, our domain name cost us $100/year. Today you can get domain names for about $5.00 a year. We needed people with systems and software expertise, who had good reliable hardware available, and a good internet backbone. Today, with the free resources available on the Internet, there's no requirement for any of that and no need for Ray or myself to host a website or maintain a mailing list and web forum. Accordingly, there is no need to donate money to Ray or myself for that level of service since any one of you can open your own submarine list on a free server from google or yahoo, and perform the same function. If all that is needed is an informal group without structure, then we don't have to worry about coordinating conventions, giving out awards, finding speakers, or fronting money for expenses associated with them. Whenever the urge hits someone, they can simply announce on the informal group list of their choice that they are hosting a "sub-diving" weekend at their particular location. Everyone who can make it, just finds a place to stay where they can, and comes and goes as they please. You put your photos up on Flickr, you put your video up on YouTube, and then simply put links to the same in your messages to the group. You might have to put up with advertisements on a free server, but you can always ask for donations from the group and pay a fee so that the advertisements are suppressed.

PSUBS.ORG has outgrown a single purpose charter that limits it as a resource to meet other people interested in talking about home-built submarines. It has exceeded that goal by any measurement and should be allowed to grow into other areas that benefit us as a group rather than solely as individuals. We will be well served as individuals if we allow PSUBS to become an organization that can represent us as a group and have both impact and influence on our industry peers. Additionally, PSUBS has grown bigger than any one of us, including myself and Ray. It has both the visibility and momentum to survive us into another generation and should be organized to do exactly that. The concept of having a formal membership is foreign to us, but in 12 years we have come as far as we are ever going to get in our current form. PSUBS is recognized worldwide, but you won't find ABS or ASME sitting at our table, you won't find industry partnering with us, and you won't find the Coast Guard, Navy, Federal or local governments willing to talk about any concerns we might have, because we are just a "group of guys who talk about submarines". Respect, recognition, and acceptance come at the expense of some amount of structure and management. The membership plan we have put in place is as non-exclusive as you will find anywhere in regards to its impact on non-members.

For those who share our vision, we welcome you to join us as a member and help propel PSUBS into new areas, while maintaining what we have built over the past 12 years. For those who feel this new vision is not worthy, you are welcome to continue using our non-member services as they suit you, and monitor our progress in hopes you see value in our vision at a future time. If we must part ways because you feel you can do better by forming your own group and move in your own direction, we wish you no ill-will and hope we can work together with you in the future.

Jon




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The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003.  Your email address appears in our database
because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
from our organization.

If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
link below or send a blank email message to:
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Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
our server receiving your request.

PSUBS.ORG
PO Box 53
Weare, NH  03281
603-529-1100
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