Well Jon,
This new mail gives me much more informations and I admit you have very
good points.
The way I see it now is that PSUBS would be able to represent us (the
home-made builders) in areas we would not be able to. And that is a very
good thing for sure. Correct me if I'm wrong :)
I understand it because I play airsoft here in Canada and it is illegal.
We would like to make it legal as in the U.S. But we are only a bunch of
guys talking on forums. we don't have an organisation to represent us and
we are going nowhere.
Anyway, I better understand where you want to go with PSUBS and you can
count on my support :)
Pierre Poulin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Wallace" <jonw@psubs.org>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Important PSUBS Info - Please Read
Thank you all for your comments. We certainly have stirred things up a
bit I guess.
I thoroughly understand your concerns as they have been expressed, and I
think we have taken precautions to create a membership that does not
unreasonably isolate or exclude anyone, is not elitist (newbie to expert
are welcome), does not restrict people from researching information, and
arguably does not restrict anyone from participating in online
discussions. If it were our intent to form an exclusive membership of
elitists, it would be very easy to do. I would simply clear the mailing
list, only add the people we wanted to participate, and then block
everyone else by ensuring I was the only one who could add people to the
list instead of letting people register on their own. Clearly we have
not taken this approach and I would ask that you all give it a chance,
and let's see how it unfolds. As we find things that don't work, we can
change them.
Regarding finances, we truly appreciate the offers that most of you have
made to donate money and support us. For those who have stated they were
willing to donate money to myself and Ray for operational costs, we ask
that you join PSUBS instead and support the organization through your
membership. From a business perspective it is better for any revenue to
go through PSUBS LLC, than myself or Ray privately. Your hard earned
money is better accounted for that way, and the government is happier
that way. It is not only a more legitimate way of doing business, but
from a financial perspective it will eventually lead to much better
budgeting and forecasting abilities than our current method which goes
something like, "hey Ray, how many t-shirts do you think we'll sell this
year?"
Trying to secure some revenue for operations is only one reason for
creating a membership, and from my perspective not the most important
one. More important is the additional structure and legitimacy that
membership will provide the organization so we can secure recognition and
respect within the industry we are part of. This is the next step from
just being "a group of guys who talk about submarines", to an
organization that has influence and can draw the attention of industry
peers as we grow. As a legitimate organization we at least have a
footing to work with when we need, or want, the attention of our industry
peers or potential speakers for our conventions. This is hardly a
threatening proposition. A "group of guys casually talking" in a forum
has little influence and legitimacy to anyone other than the individuals
participating in the discussion, and even that is dependent upon the
level of respect they hold for each other. There is unquestionably much
more potential for any one individual to be excluded from the discussion
between a "group of guys talking" in an unorganized forum, than within a
formal organization such as we are proposing. It's somewhat ironic to
note that the accolades numerous people have extended regarding their
experience with PSUBS over the years is due to the fact that we have
operated it in nearly the identical format that we now simply want to
formalize.
If all that is needed is a central location where a group of guys can go
to share information about their submarine, then PSUBS.ORG has fulfilled
its initial purpose and at the same time outlived it's usefulness. In
1997 when we formed PSUBS, the resources available today on the Internet
did not exist. Free websites, free email, free mailing lists, free
groups, and free web forums were simply not available. In 1997, our
domain name cost us $100/year. Today you can get domain names for about
$5.00 a year. We needed people with systems and software expertise, who
had good reliable hardware available, and a good internet backbone.
Today, with the free resources available on the Internet, there's no
requirement for any of that and no need for Ray or myself to host a
website or maintain a mailing list and web forum. Accordingly, there is
no need to donate money to Ray or myself for that level of service since
any one of you can open your own submarine list on a free server from
google or yahoo, and perform the same function. If all that is needed is
an informal group without structure, then we don't have to worry about
coordinating conventions, giving out awards, finding speakers, or
fronting money for expenses associated with them. Whenever the urge hits
someone, they can simply announce on the informal group list of their
choice that they are hosting a "sub-diving" weekend at their particular
location. Everyone who can make it, just finds a place to stay where they
can, and comes and goes as they please. You put your photos up on
Flickr, you put your video up on YouTube, and then simply put links to
the same in your messages to the group. You might have to put up with
advertisements on a free server, but you can always ask for donations
from the group and pay a fee so that the advertisements are suppressed.
PSUBS.ORG has outgrown a single purpose charter that limits it as a
resource to meet other people interested in talking about home-built
submarines. It has exceeded that goal by any measurement and should be
allowed to grow into other areas that benefit us as a group rather than
solely as individuals. We will be well served as individuals if we allow
PSUBS to become an organization that can represent us as a group and have
both impact and influence on our industry peers. Additionally, PSUBS has
grown bigger than any one of us, including myself and Ray. It has both
the visibility and momentum to survive us into another generation and
should be organized to do exactly that. The concept of having a formal
membership is foreign to us, but in 12 years we have come as far as we
are ever going to get in our current form. PSUBS is recognized
worldwide, but you won't find ABS or ASME sitting at our table, you won't
find industry partnering with us, and you won't find the Coast Guard,
Navy, Federal or local governments willing to talk about any concerns we
might have, because we are just a "group of guys who talk about
submarines". Respect, recognition, and acceptance come at the expense of
some amount of structure and management. The membership plan we have put
in place is as non-exclusive as you will find anywhere in regards to its
impact on non-members.
For those who share our vision, we welcome you to join us as a member and
help propel PSUBS into new areas, while maintaining what we have built
over the past 12 years. For those who feel this new vision is not
worthy, you are welcome to continue using our non-member services as they
suit you, and monitor our progress in hopes you see value in our vision
at a future time. If we must part ways because you feel you can do
better by forming your own group and move in your own direction, we wish
you no ill-will and hope we can work together with you in the future.
Jon
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The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
from our organization.
If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
link below or send a blank email message to:
removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
our server receiving your request.
PSUBS.ORG
PO Box 53
Weare, NH 03281
603-529-1100
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