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[PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUBers in Training



Jay,

"You misspeak for the group.  Those people that have been operating submersibles for some time and those with submarine experience strive for KISS (and they keep telling you this) while those just building and/or no experience love redundancy and extra safety features. "

I'm a little surprised you have not gotten a lot of flak for the above statement. The K-350's have a number of redundant systems for safety, and a good number of other systems just for safety. They have at five ways to let you get back to the surface. Also there are a whole list of guys that have built successful subs on there first try, that have a whole host of new designs elements on there sub.  For example we have Karl Stanley's C-BUG with it new design features. Then we have the R300 with  so many new complex elements, all successfully implemented. So don't even try to put the guys that have not finished there first sub in a kiddy pool and disrespect are ideas and contributions, just because we have not finish a successful sub.

I would further request that you don't use the term neophyte to belittle the PSUBers in training, like my self. Many are older then you, and have a hell of a lot of skills and experiences to bring to the table, not to mention the people and contacts they know. Your a pretty smart guy over all, so it shouldn't be hard for you to phrase your posting in a nice informative way. It won't hurt you to admit your wrong once in a while either. I don't much care who is right, I just want to learn what the correct answer is, or what needs to be further explored so I can continue to learn. Don't just automatically appose an idea or subject matter I bring up because you are perturbed with me. It makes life more negative then it needs to be. Steve Pearce had his fill of the negative and decided to leave the group and work on his design in peace. So for right or wrong we have lost a great member for the time being. Please lighten up Jay and Jon, there is no need to choose a negative path with this grand group of passionate and many times nutty individuals.


 Your resident positive thinker ;)'

Sincerely,

Brent Hartwig



From: bottomgun@mindspring.com
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:00:13 -0400

Brent,

You misspeak for the group.  Those people that have been operating submersibles for some time and those with submarine experience strive for KISS (and they keep telling you this) while those just building and/or no experience love redundancy and extra safety features. 

 

Please review the emails and note that anyone with any submersible experience has repeatedly told you that dive brakes are a poor idea.  While on the surface they sound like a great idea (go-cart, bicycle, or car…what about boats?), they don’t work.  You are better to rely on procedure than a mechanical gimmick underwater to avoid a hazard, especially in your typical PSUB.  Speed is hazardous underwater:

1.       Close to the bottom you are going to run into something despite any mechanical or electronic contraption;

2.       Speed will force you out of your operating envelop in a jammed planes causality resulting in a violation of your test/crush depth.

It has been demonstrated that dive brakes and braking chutes have not worked to mitigate these two safety issues.  A five-point safety belt doesn’t do you much good when you are stranded on the bottom, just makes it more difficult to get the body out.

 

Speed was designed into Deep Flight for one reason only and that was to get to a very deep bottom, not for cruising on the bottom.  Graham Hawks recognized that much of the ocean was very deep and most submersibles only penetrated the top veneer.  Alvin took hours to get to an even moderate depth and Graham wanted to return to the bottom of the Marianas Trench, over seven miles down.  He knew he would need a unique vehicle to get there fast and Deep Flight is the proof of concept.  If you can go to the bottom of the Trench it is tough to operate outside of your depth envelop and small propulsion motors were to be used for cruising at a safe speed on the bottom.  Hawks promoted this concept back in the 80s and hasn’t reached it fully yet.

Jay

 

Respectfully,

Jay K. Jeffries

Andros Is., Bahamas

 

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.

    - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)

 

From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hartwig
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 6:18 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

 

Greetings Sean,

Your items one thru four, I find to be very sound.  As a general rule, this group tends to love redundant and extra safety features. So having brakes of some sort seem very important/useful/desirable. Braking flaps can be used when on the surface as well. If you have paddled a canoed or kayak much, you will know that you usually can only go as fast as an average K-boat and if you turn your paddle flat you stop very quickly. Of course a canoe is lighter so that just means we need larger flaps, if we want/need to stop that fast.

Having only two seconds to react, as Jon was writing about, many times isn't enough time to do much of any thing. One reason Alec might not of even seen the cable, could be he wasn't looking out the forward port at the time.  Look at how little time and stopping distance we have in a car many times over and over and yet still stop in time.  I was thinking about installing a braking flaps system, that operates much like a cars brakes, with a foot peddle in the same position as a cars, and hydraulic assist, or perhaps a brake lever like used on many cars for there emergency brake, could work very quickly as well. Even if you still hit the boulder, you might of slowed down enough to make the collision far less of a problem.  But that's just me, I like convoluted mechanical means if I can learn from those prototypes how to make them really function properly, or abandon them to explore other ideas.


Have you ever driven a go cart, bicycle, or car that didn't have brakes. It's quite hard unless you stay with in a safe operating envelope, which would be on pretty flat ground, and at very low speeds. So your safe operating envelope will change in a sub if it has good braking flaps and you know how to use them. Of course with a car with no brakes, you usually have some built in collision protection like bumpers, air bags, and seat belts. But you still don't want to hit people and there flower gardens. In are case we don't want to hit nasty rocks, coral reefs, boats, SCUBA divers, etc., etc., etc.....

I plan to have a five point seat belt system installed in my gliding hydrobatic subs, much like those installed in the Bionic Dolphin and Bioniorca. Perhaps I need a air bag system as well. It might be a really bad idea for a air bag to go off in a small sub. My be it would be better to use them on large subs. I would expect a lot of the injures that have a cured to sailer's on subs that have hit some thing, were a result of them not being seated with a seat belt on.

Another possible use for braking flaps is to help you drift with the current, if it's going the same way you are, to save power. 



Your resident possibility thinker ;)'

Regards,
Szybowski

 


Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:46:48 -0600
From: cast55@telus.net
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

 Not to make light of the many creative contributions to this discussion, but I can't help but feel like this is an unnecessary solution to a self-imposed problem, much like the guy who lined his car windshield with pillows in case he had a collision from not being able to see correctly due to the gas mask he wore in case of a leak from the gasoline canister strapped in the passenger seat which he carried in case he ran out of fuel.   Sometimes, the solution requires taking a step back and eliminating a problem further up the chain.
 
In the case of submarine collisions, you have two identifiable primary risks:  1) entanglement, and 2) damage.  In the context of the anticipated operating conditions, I can't help but wonder if design effort to reduce entanglement potential by
 
1)  streamlining the hull and superstructure, and minimizing appendages to prevent entanglement or entrapment
2) accomodating impacts to the hull and superstructure by incorporating such features as collision bulkheads, space frames and guards where appropriate
3) implementing better systems to warn of impending collision, including attempts to increase range of visibility, lighting, sonar, etc.
4) defining operating parameters consistent with the vehicle design and anticipated operating conditions to firstly avoid collisions altogether, and where a collision may not be avoided, to enable the vehicle to withstand collision without sustaining critical damage 
 
- are better uses of resources than convoluted mechanical or other means of reducing vehicle momentum on an impending collision, which may represent increased risks from other perspectives.  
 
A common error made in "what if" contingency planning is failing to determine if the "what if" event in question can be avoided (preventative), thus eliminating the requirement for a contingency plan (reactive).
 
Just my $0.02.
 
-Sean
 
 
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