Jay, "You misspeak for the group. Those people that have been operating submersibles for some time and those with submarine experience strive for KISS (and they keep telling you this) while those just building and/or no experience love redundancy and extra safety features. " I'm a little surprised you have not gotten a lot of flak for the above statement. The K-350's have a number of redundant systems for safety, and a good number of other systems just for safety. They have at five ways to let you get back to the surface. Also there are a whole list of guys that have built successful subs on there first try, that have a whole host of new designs elements on there sub. For example we have Karl Stanley's C-BUG with it new design features. Then we have the R300 with so many new complex elements, all successfully implemented. So don't even try to put the guys that have not finished there first sub in a kiddy pool and disrespect are ideas and contributions, just because we have not finish a successful sub. I would further request that you don't use the term neophyte to belittle the PSUBers in training, like my self. Many are older then you, and have a hell of a lot of skills and experiences to bring to the table, not to mention the people and contacts they know. Your a pretty smart guy over all, so it shouldn't be hard for you to phrase your posting in a nice informative way. It won't hurt you to admit your wrong once in a while either. I don't much care who is right, I just want to learn what the correct answer is, or what needs to be further explored so I can continue to learn. Don't just automatically appose an idea or subject matter I bring up because you are perturbed with me. It makes life more negative then it needs to be. Steve Pearce had his fill of the negative and decided to leave the group and work on his design in peace. So for right or wrong we have lost a great member for the time being. Please lighten up Jay and Jon, there is no need to choose a negative path with this grand group of passionate and many times nutty individuals. Your resident positive thinker ;)' Sincerely, Brent Hartwig From: bottomgun@mindspring.com To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:00:13 -0400 Brent, You misspeak for the group. Those people that have been operating submersibles for some time and those with submarine experience strive for KISS (and they keep telling you this) while those just building and/or no experience love redundancy and extra safety features.
Please review the emails and note that anyone with any submersible experience has repeatedly told you that dive brakes are a poor idea. While on the surface they sound like a great idea (go-cart, bicycle, or car…what about boats?), they don’t work. You are better to rely on procedure than a mechanical gimmick underwater to avoid a hazard, especially in your typical PSUB. Speed is hazardous underwater: 1. Close to the bottom you are going to run into something despite any mechanical or electronic contraption; 2. Speed will force you out of your operating envelop in a jammed planes causality resulting in a violation of your test/crush depth. It has been demonstrated that dive brakes and braking chutes have not worked to mitigate these two safety issues. A five-point safety belt doesn’t do you much good when you are stranded on the bottom, just makes it more difficult to get the body out.
Speed was designed into Deep Flight for one reason only and that was to get to a very deep bottom, not for cruising on the bottom. Graham Hawks recognized that much of the ocean was very deep and most submersibles only penetrated the top veneer. Alvin took hours to get to an even moderate depth and Graham wanted to return to the bottom of the Marianas Trench, over seven miles down. He knew he would need a unique vehicle to get there fast and Deep Flight is the proof of concept. If you can go to the bottom of the Trench it is tough to operate outside of your depth envelop and small propulsion motors were to be used for cruising at a safe speed on the bottom. Hawks promoted this concept back in the 80s and hasn’t reached it fully yet. Jay
Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
From:
owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brent
Hartwig
Greetings Sean, Regards,
Date:
Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:46:48 -0600 |