Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New web site

[irox <irox@ix.netcom.com>]

Hi,

I kind of see where people are coming from in this thread, but...

If safety is the main goal, let's ban private psubs that are not
built to ABS or whatever.  If promoting personal submarines is
the main goal, let's not ban private subs.  Safety is a pillar
that let's us achieve our goals of personal submarine ownership,
the stronger that pillar, the more we can do. 

Simon, yes your project has worth, regardless of psubs, Jon,
anybody else.  Even if aspects of your project are untried/untested,
it's still worth.  While, the content of what people write about is
is important, they shouldn't have to censor themselves if they are
concerned publishing information that cause problems or legislation
for other psubbers.  In fact, if anybody thinks they have some
"unsafe" ideas, the talk/writing about phase is a great places to
get it out of your system.  You can also build those ideas, then
with a well designed test plan, make sure you full understand the
operational parameters of your design (normally be destroying
several of them and making sure they fail in consistent ways).

Knowledge and understanding are two other important pillars of subs.
With knowledge and a good understanding of that knowledge I can
design things that others are not and plan a way to test it to
prove it works the way I designed.  With just knowledge (say a
set of K350 plans and machining skills) you can build a safe sub
with understanding exactly how steal behaves as a pressure boundary.


Submarines are my goal - Safety, knowledge and understanding
are pillars which support my goal.  Submarines are heavy, the
pillars need to be sturdy.


Now I'm rambling...  sorry, my point was encourage all to post
their ideas (please search the archives first and read what was
said about it in the past)

Cheers,
  Ian.
P.s.:  Normally it's cheaper to talk about bad ideas than do them.


-----Original Message-----
>From: simon blackburn <siblack10000@googlemail.com>
>Sent: Jul 22, 2008 8:52 AM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New web site
>
>Hi Jon
>
>Thanks for the reply and support for the site, the link to PSubs is on the
>home page and I also recommend on the home page, that anyone interested in
>this subject joins this forum. I take on board your comments and wholly
>agree that as the principle forum, in the world, for this subject and the
>inherent dangers of this subject, PSubs must support safety as its principle
>goal. My comments where in no way a dig at anybody just me thinking out
>loud.
>
>My question was reallly a selfish one in looking for some reassurance that
>my project has worth and will not expose the PSubs group to a risk of
>increased legislation, which would incur resultant costs. As your comments
>are positive towards the work on the site and I assume from this, the
>project contained within, I take it that you do not see my project as a
>potential source of problems for the PSubs Community. I will continue in
>this forum in my limited way and hopefully become a more active member when
>issues arise that I believe I can make a valid contribution to.
>
>Regards Simon
>
>
>On 7/22/08, jonw@psubs.org <jonw@psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>  Hello Simon,
>>
>>
>>
>> First of all, congratulations on your website.  Nice job.  It would also be
>> nice to see a link back to psubs.
>>
>>
>>
>> It has been shown by numerous projects in progress or that have been
>> completed, that a well designed, safe, and functional sub does not require
>> resources in a "big way".   There's a difference between "big way" and "safe
>> way".  There is ample evidence of home-built subs fabricated in a "safe way"
>> by people who do not have  resources in a "big way".  Conversely, there is
>> no guarantee that fabricating a sub with resources "in a big way" inherently
>> results in a sub built the "safe way".  These are indisputable truths which
>> can be proven by both example and demonstration.
>>
>>
>>
>> In reference to your question "...I ask is it not more appropriate to
>> achieve what you can with the resources available while understanding the
>> risks you take?", the answer is; that is something which is for you to
>> decide, not PSUBS.  Only you can decide what risks you are willing to take.
>> Only you can decide if trading the resources required for a particular
>> design, for "resources I can afford", is acceptable for you.  PSUBS has no
>> enforcement power over you.  There are no "PSUBS police" that are going to
>> break down your door in the middle of the night, confiscate your sub, and
>> relegate you into a life of just surviving.  From an individualistic
>> perspective, you could certainly conclude that the answer to your question
>> is, yes.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the real question you want answered is more properly written as
>> "...I ask is it not more appropriate - for PSUBS to support people - to
>> achieve what they can with the resources available while understanding the
>> risks they take?"  From a community perspective, we could certainly conclude
>> that the answer to your question is, no.  Without understanding the
>> specifics of the "resources" and "risks", such endorsement would be much too
>> broad.  PSUBS is not some street corner where home builders arbitrarily
>> meet, talk a bit, BS a bit, and then go on their merry little way.  PSUBS
>> is an internationally known public location which is read by segments of
>> the commercial and research submersible industry, the civilian government,
>> the military, law enforcement, and the media.  We have more than 350 people
>> on the mailing list and the web site averages more than 30,000 visitors each
>> month.  As has been pointed out by others, what we say matters, if for no
>> other reason than the sheer volume of people who have access to the material
>> we present and don't know as much as we do about submersibles.
>>
>>
>> Your reference to "only those with the appropriate resources should attempt
>> to build submarines" is not what I said in a previous message.  My exact
>> quote was "If you don't have the resources to build a sub properly, don't
>> build it."   My words do not imply that only the wealthy, or only those
>> with doctorate degrees should be building subs.  It also does not
>> specify, nor restrict, the resources one should use.  It simply implies
>> common sense.  For example, if the operating requirements of your sub
>> require 6mm steel, don't use low-cost 55 gallon drums.  To do so is not
>> being innovative, it is being stupid.
>>
>> The suggestion that innovation is being stagnated by calls for safe and
>> proper design/construction techniques, regardless of the resources
>> available, is diatribe by people who have an "anything goes" and "you
>> ain't gonna tell me what to do" mentality.  Don't listen to them.  Everyone
>> has an individual right to do what they want, as they want.  However, when
>> you open your ideas to the public, you run the risk that someone else who
>> has a bit more knowledge, a bit more experience, and a perhaps a bit more
>> sense, is going to disagree with your resource choices and risk assessment.
>> That is their right.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:
>> owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org]*On Behalf Of *simon blackburn
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 21, 2008 8:59 AM
>> *To:* personal_submersibles
>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] New web site
>>
>> Hello chaps
>>
>> I've been following the site for a good number of years, like many people
>> just listening and learning.  The recent discussions have me thinking with
>> regards to whether people such as myself have a place in these forums or
>> whether they should be left to those fortunate individuals with the
>> resources (time and money) to pursue the dream in a big way.  I recently
>> started a web site to focus my mind on actually achieving something and
>> wanted to get it to a reasonable point before publishing the address on the
>> forum.  With the recent discussions and statements that only those with the
>> appropriate resources should attempt to build submersibles, I ask is it not
>> more appropriate to achieve what you can with the resources available while
>> understanding the risks you take?
>>
>> I know, maybe because of what I've learnt here I don't have resources to
>> build a 1 atmosphere, so I start with a wet sub in shallow water which as a
>> qualified diver I can bail out of. Anyway will my wetsub when complete be a
>> threat to the Psubs community? I live in the UK and I guess bad press here
>> is more likely to get to North America than from China.  I can assure you I
>> plan on living long enough to see my grandkids and my kids are only 7 and 10
>> so I certainly don't have a death wish.
>>
>> Although my site and project are a long way from complete I'll let you view
>> my website and pass the comments you feel are appropriate. The address is;
>>
>>  http://siblack10000.googlepages.com/home
>>
>> Let me know what you think
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>




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