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RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydraulic Steering



OK all good points....keep it simple.
 
  I liked the central location of all things ballast in the form of a BCP or ballast control panel. All hull fittings and valves are given position indications and various trim tanks have level gages.
 
  Trim tanks...Not much is mentioned of this area of depth control. Tanks forward and aft with a central tank for fine adjustments. A pump to transfer water from these tanks as dirrected one to another and for removing water from within the boat to make it more bouyant.
 
  As for seperate dive planes, On the boat aboard which I was stationed, the aft most dive planes called stern planes were used to control the angle of the boat. If heavy overall, this angle could be slightly upwards forward with the boats keel and forward planes creating a slight lift (Like a large jet aircraft ) as the boat moved thru the water...the faster the boat traveled, the more lift.
  The foward planes called Fairwater planes mounted on the sail were used to control depth as these were located slightly forward of the center of gravity. Placing these downward resulted in a fast depth increase...prolonged application resulted in a change in angle as well.
 
  Having a single drive shaft in the centerline of a submarine adds a bit of problems when concidering how to control the rudder as well as these stern planes surfaces...I made a point of studying how this task was performed and feel that I can duplicate this feat.
 
  If you wished to change depth fast, both planes surfaces were aimed down at the same time. But, times did call for independent operation hense the use of two planesman stations.
 
  An area I wish to investigate is the use of slightly swept planes surfaces as in the evolution of aircraft, this proved to maintain control at higher speeds...why not on submarines?
 
                                                                                     David Bartsch



From: ShellyDalg@aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:35:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydraulic Steering
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org

Hi David. Some times "easy" is a little misleading. The nice thing about having the manual valves inside is you never wonder if it's working or not. There's a guy in Michigan with a real nice red sub. He's got electric dump valves on his ballast tanks.( or maybe pneumatic ) I don't think he's ever had a problem with them, but if he did, he's gonna be real screwed. I considered buying his sub at one time. It's very beefy, and the work is nice. He said he had about $100K into it, and I believe him. He was asking $70K for it on ebay.It just didn't quite fit my purpose, and the modifications would have been extensive.
I'm no computer whiz, or even a competent electrician, so I like things real simple, with a fail safe system on every thing. Some things have fail safes on the fail safes. ( Ya , I'm a little paranoid when it comes to taking my kids to a place with inherent danger.)
Ask the other guys about how they're plumbing the ballast tanks, and how they operate. I think most will agree that simpler is usually "easier."
I see in my head what type of valve you're contemplating, and although it will definitely work, there may be some problems that could arise. I don't mean to be a know-it-all, just trying to put my own two cents in.
First....The air pressure in the ballast tanks at the surface is very small, and air can get out some really tiny spaces. If a little piece of crap from the water was to get lodged in the valve, you could be docked and at the bar for a drink, or maybe lunch, and come back to find your boat sitting at the bottom of the harbor.( bummer ! )
Second....A screw mechanism generally doesn't snap shut, but must be powered closed. Could be a problem if there's an electrical failure any where in the system. Hydraulics would be better in that scenario so you could relieve the pressure and the valve would close by itself ( maybe with a spring ? ) so if something goes wrong, blow ballast and surface.
Still, you're relying on a device that's outside and can't be reached until you get to the surface.
If speed of dumping is the concern, put a bigger valve inside the sub. The labor is the same, and the cost difference minimal. I will be using 1 inch valves on mine, but 1 1/2 or even 2 wouldn't be much more work/cost.
Third...... With the valve inside, you need two holes in the hull per tank. One for air to come out of the tank, and one for that air to be dumped outside. Add an air line to that loop, and you can blow ballast through the same holes. If you have a hydraulic line or electrical cable going to the ballast tank, plus an air line, you still have just two holes per tank in the hull. That's a wash.
Fourth...... If there's a leak, you know it right away because it's right there and will drip. If the valve is outside on the tank, how do you tell if it's leaking ? That's not a big deal if a little air leaks out while submerged, because its full of water anyway, but if the valve or related systems fail for one reason or another, can you still blow the tanks to surface ?
Ask the guys who have finished subs. I'm certainly no expert, and in fact, have only been in one of these things down under once, and I wasn't even driving ! ( Dan took me on a night dive in his. What a blast ! )
Like most things, I try to keep it simple, and rely on what the more experienced guys tell me.
    On the steering thing, Ya, you got the idea. It could work very much like that. A wheel for turning the rudders,( rack and pinion to the master cylinders ) and a push/pull for the dive planes. I was wondering if there would be any advantage to having the dive planes operate separately. Maybe the left one pointing up, and the right one pointing down. Would it be possible to tilt the sub slightly on it's side while cruising the depths ? Would it be of any use ? Certainly would add some complication to the control plumbing. OOPS! getting complicated again !
When you get to the convention, ask lots of questions. This is a great bunch of guys and they all have their area of expertise. They're all way smarter than I am, and I wouldn't be any where near where I'm at with out them.  Frank D.




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