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[PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Heater Options

I've been watching a new heater technology since I first heard about it from a friend of mine that lives in his classic Airstream RV.  They are Platinum Catalytic propane heaters, that are made to be used in confined spaces since they claim they don't put off any harmful fumes. They do however consume some O2 and produce some CO2 and moister, so you will need a way to monitor and add O2 and remove CO2 with scrubbers, unless you just use the heater when your traveling at the surface with the hatch open.

You could attach one or more of the small Coleman brand units to the inside of your sub with brackets, or perhaps even make a custom ducted design that sends the warm air to blow on the viewports to defog them after the air has passed through a moister trap or product like DampRid. There are also larger units from other manufactures that could be used in larger subs.

Below is some information about this technology I found interesting.

"Catalytic Propane Heaters:  Catalytic heaters differ from other propane heaters in that the propane is combined with oxygen to create heat on the surface of a hot platinum catalyst, so that there is no flame.  The absence of an open flame, and the relatively low temperature (the catalyst in the Olympian glows a faint, dull, red - visible only in the dark) increases the safety, relative to open flames.  The catalytic process also results in a nearly perfect conversion of propane and oxygen into carbon dioxide and water vapor, with no significant carbon monoxide produced."


"Coleman 5038-850 BlackCat Perfectemp Catalytic Propane Heater with Instastart Technology

Product Description
Designed for recreational use in enclosed areas Platinum catalytic technology means flameless warmth and whisper quiet Compact lightweight and portable Pressure regulated propane fuel control system Large 8 heating head Operates up to seven hours on a 16.4 oz. disposable propane cylinder or six hours on a 14.1 oz. cylinder (not included) 3 000 BTU,Outdoors,Catalytic,,076501220629

Product Features
  • Adjustable high-low temperature setting
  • Electronic ignition for quick and easy matchless lighting
  • Portable easy-to-grip handle makes heater easy to carry
  • Compact legs integrate into collar for easy storage
  • 3,000 BTU output operates up to seven hours from one 16.4 ounce propane cylinder (not included)
Product Description

The Coleman 5038-850 BlackCat Perfectemp Catalytic Propane Heater with InstaStart Technology provides you with comfortable warmth indoors or in a tent. This catalytic heater has an electronic ignition which is not only quicker and easier that using a match, but is much more reliable in cold, windy weather. This Coleman BlackCat heater is incredibly portable for its heat output, with an easy-to-grip handle that makes it easy to carry, and compact legs that integrate into its collar for easy storage. The BlackCat's 3,000 BTU output will operate for up to seven hours on one 16.4 ounce cylinder of propane (not included).
Manufacturer Warranty
Limited lifetime warranty

Product Details
  • Product Dimensions: 9 x 9 x 8.5 inches ; 2.6 pounds
  • Shipping Weight: 4.3 pounds (View shipping rates and policies)
  • Special Shipping Notices:
    • Standard shipping may not be available for some variations of this item to: US Protectorates Street
    • Standard shipping may not be available for some variations of this item to: US Protectorates PO Box
  • Shipping: Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S.
  • Shipping Advisory: This item must be shipped separately from other items in your order. Additional shipping charges will not apply.
  • ASIN: B0009PUQW8
  • Item model number: 5038A850
  • Average Customer Review: 4.6 out of 5 stars 14 customer reviews (14 customer reviews)"

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Perfectemp-Catalytic-Instastart-Technology/dp/B0009PUQW8#moreAboutThisProduct
There are also two other products of this kind from Coleman.

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-5053A751-Perfectemp-Instastart-Technology/dp/B0009PURYU/ref=pd_sim_sg_title_1/102-8600474-6657758

http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/coleman-sportcat-heater.html

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-SportCat-Perfectemp-Catalytic-Propane/dp/B0009PUPSI/ref=pd_sbs_sg_title_2/102-8600474-6657758


There are larger units designed primarily for RV's that might work well for larger subs.

http://www.campingworld.com/browse/products/index.cfm/Outdoor-and-RV-Accessories/RV-Maintenance/Olympian-Wave-Catalytic-Heater/deptID=3:prodID=1630:src="">
"Advantages of Catalytic Heaters:
Portability:  Because of the "clean" burning of the propane, a catalytic heater need not be vented to the outside. It can be installed on or in any wall.   Or when used with an attached 1 lb. tank, or  installed with a flexible propane hose and quick-connect fittings, it is almost as portable as an electric cube heater.
Directionality: A substantial amount of heat is radiated straight out from the front of the heater, warming the body it is pointed at.   Sitting in front of the heater is almost like sitting in front of an open fireplace - the cozy feeling of the radiant heat allows keeping the rest of the room cooler.
Quiet:  In very quiet surroundings, a very faint hiss may be heard.  In most conditions, this is inaudible.  Some of the larger heaters, such as the Mr. Heater Big Buddy, have a 12v. fan, which probably adds some noise.
No Electricity:  Most catalytic heaters use little or no electricity - a major advantage when boondocking in cold weather.
Efficient:  The catalytic heater is 100% efficient in converting propane to heat.  This is a somewhat misleading statement, since a window must be opened slightly while the heater is in use, to remove water vapor and CO2, and to supply oxygen.  Even with the heat loss from the open window, the catalytic heater will use considerably less propane than a conventional propane furnace.
Disadvantages of Catalytic Heaters:
High Cost:   A catalytic propane heater costs considerably more than a good quality electric heater.  The catalytic element may eventually become contaminated and (for the Olympian brand heaters) must be replaced at the factory - a substantial expense. Ours is now 5 years old and is still working well, although we only use it occasionally and keep it covered when not in use.
Installation required: Unless you understand plumbing and are "handy", you will have to hire someone to connect the heater to your existing propane supply.   I did it myself - see below.  Some smaller models use disposable 1-lb tanks.  This avoids the installation problem, but makes them much more expensive to operate.  Another option is to use a long extension hose to a 20 lb tank which must (by law) be kept outside the living area.
Large Size:  Compared to an electric cube heater, the propane heater is substantially larger and more awkward to store. The propane hose is stiffer than an electric cord, and can't be plugged in to as many locations in the RV. 
Altitude limitations: The models with oxygen depletion sensors can not be used above 5000 to 7000 feet (depending on brand). The Olympian models without ODS can be used up to 12,000 feet, according to Olympian. The Mr. Heater "Buddy" models may be used up to 7000 ft.
Safety Concerns:  Any portable heater requires care and common sense.  A portable propane heater requires additional care.  There is no tip-over shutoff (at least on our model - some brands do include this), although the legs on the portable model make it quite stable.  Although the temperature of the heating element is much lower than that of an open flame (and much lower than many electric heaters), it still could start a fire if in contact with flammable material. The flexible hose and connections on a portable heater need periodic inspection for leaks. The propane should be shut off at the source when the heater is not in use.  Forgetting to open a window when the heater is in use is a risk. These heaters are often mounted permanently on or in a wall.  This eliminates some (but not all) of the above safety concerns.
Product Recommendations:
I have experience with only one brand - Olympian - and what follows below is directly applicable only to this brand.  I have heard second-hand unfavorable comments about a Coleman catalytic propane heater, but have not seen one.  I've heard of vented catalytic heaters, but these are lower efficiency, much more restricted in their installation options (requiring a permanent vent through a sidewall of the RV), and may require electricity for a fan. The Mr. Heater Portable Buddy has been getting good reviews and is relatively inexpensive. But it has an ODS (oxygen depletion sensor), making it useless above 7000 feet.
Olympian makes several models of heater suitable for RV use.    For comparison, a 1500 watt electric heater puts out 5200 BTU/hr. Counting some loss for the required ventilation, the 6000 BTU/hr propane heater is roughly comparable to a 1500 watt electric heater.
Model Heat Output (min. - max.) BTU/Hr Notes
Wave-3 1600-3000 manual - no thermostat, no electricity needed.  Wall or portable mounting options.  Piezoelectric spark ignition
Wave-6 3200-6000
Wave-8 4200-8000
3100 ODS 3000 has oxygen sensor;  can not be used above approximately 5000 feet above sea level. Wall or portable mounting. No electricity needed.
6100 ODS 6000
8100 ODS 8000
6100 ET 6000 has automatic thermostat; Wall mount only.  requires 12v. electricity - 5 amps while igniting, <0.2 amp thereafter.
8100 ET 8000
The "Wave" models may violate RV building codes in some areas, making the "ODS" version the only option available in those areas.
If used in an unventilated space, any propane heater will consume oxygen until there is inadequate oxygen for human breathing. The oxygen sensor in the ET models senses a low oxygen level and turns off the heater if the level gets too low for safety.
Although an oxygen sensor makes the heater safer, it restricts the heater to use at altitudes below about 5000 feet (7000 ft. for Mr. Heater "Buddy" models). For many RVers, this is a really major disadvantage, since some of the nicest camping locations are at higher altitudes, and the heater's primary use may be for the cool nights found year-round at high elevation.
Because these heaters use oxygen and emit water vapor snd carbon dioxide (not carbon monoxide!), any space in which the heater is used must be ventilated (a window opened slightly), both to add new oxygen and to get rid of the excess moisture. Olympian recommends one square inch of free air opening per 1000 BTU/hr of heat output for "rooms of average airtightness". I have found that our travel trailer is leaky enough to provide sufficient oxygen for two people to breathe while the heater is in use without opening windows. A friend with a large high-end fifth wheel trailer has also found this to be true. We ventilate anyway, largely to keep the moisture level reasonable. But it's comforting to know that if we forgot to open a window before going to bed, it wouldn't kill us."
Here is a safety report for propane heaters including catalytic types used in confined areas.

http://www.newarts.com/images/CatHeaterSafety.pdf


Regards,
Brent Hartwig


From: ShellyDalg@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:51:23 -0500
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABS rules updates
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org

Hello Carsten. Thanks for the info. I was wondering what warmed the air in peppers? Does the fan act as heater also?
I know that pretty much any kind of combustion device will produce carbon monoxide, so an electric heater seems like the only option. That of course requires lots of electrical power which is generally in short supply on a small sub. Frank D.