From: "james kocourek" <kocpnt@lakefield.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another "drug" sub captured.
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 05:12:36 -0500
Hi Rick,
I have a good start to a 1 atm sub that will be capable of 1000 foot depth
when completed. I am expecting to complete this project in 2 -3 years. I am
a relative newcomer to the site. Been active for just over a year.
Best Regards,
Jim Kocourek
kocpnt@lakefield.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Land N Sea Welding
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another "drug" sub captured.
Hi all,
It's been a long time since I've posted anything. I am presently
building a K-350 on the Big Island and would like to hear from anyone who
has built one in the past, is in the process of building one or owns one
but didn't build it. Please send me your email address with any comments
you would like to make. It would be interesting to know how many are out
there and there locations.
Rick
----- Original Message -----
From: James Huffman
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another "drug" sub captured.
Peter,
Being polite is understandable. The u-boats, up untill after the
Laconia incident, did wat they could for survivors, from the ships that
they sunk. Not every u-boat did this, but from understanding, most did.
WIth the exception of U-852, u-boats followed the rules of war. So, I do
seperate actions at sea, from what the SS and the Nazi doctor's did in the
concentration camps. Sadly, no one has learned from history. The Yugoslav
Civil War, brought the use of concentration camps again.
I have seen the pictures of the cold water test. Very sad what they
did. But, the post war military groups, such as the Coast Guard, did make
use of the information from those test. But unlike the Nazi doctors, the
Coast Guard uses the information to saves lives. You are correct that that
medial experiment is not German. It was a Nazi atrocity.
Yes the sinking of ships, did cause a high loss of life. I was
unaware that the USA military in WW2 used captured German soilders to clear
mine fields. That is very sad, and also a war crime, uner the laws used at
the Nuembeg Trials. I know of the USS Wahoo, on its third war patrol,
machine gunned survivors from a ship that it had sunk, but it did that a
year before U-852 did the same thing. No matter what nation does a war
crime, it is very sad that it happens. It is even more sad when the party
involved in the war crime, does not get held accontable for his/her
actions.
I do agree that we all share the guilt. But knowing history, we
should be able to prevent it. Sadly, people tend to view history as boring
or do not care about history. If we understand history, we can better
prevent war crimes and atrocities that happen.
Best regaurds as well,
James
Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk> wrote:
James,
In writing "Nazi" submarines I simply tried to be polite. In Germany
you will typically say that the Nazi´s did this and that - When the German
guide in Concentration Camp Sachenhausen shows the tourists piles of human
hair and shoes - she does not say - this is "German" industrialized murder
- but that the "Nazi´s" did this...so that she avoids being identified with
it.
Today - I saw a picture on wiki - showing a person in a Luftwaffe
uniform lying in a bathtub with icebloks around him. He´s is German - but
unfortunately also a Jew. With him is two Luftwaffe medical officers -
writing down his reactions on paper as he is slowly freezing to death. They
measure time vs. body temperature and takes notes when he loses continence
and when the heart finaly stops.
This is not a German medical experiment - this is a Nazi atrocity.
The submarines of both US, Soviet and German navies killed sailors,
civilians and soldiers by the thousand in much the same way ( in the
pacific theater death is caused but other effects - but result is the same
) - and for that matter my own beautiful peaceful countrymen enjoyed
killing German soldiers AFTER the surrender by using them to clear
minefields on the westcost - by forcing them to walk though it.
In my humble opinion being humans we all share the guilt - and the
capability for war - and atrocities. Its not a German, Soviet or US
specialty. Submarines did their gruesome part - and may do it again.
One US Trident SSBN can destroy a continent in about 15
minutes...and will do so if the President issues the order...I think they
have fifteen of those...fantastic machines...
Best regards, and back to joyrides in homemade subs...
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: James Huffman
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another "drug" sub captured.
I agree with you for the most part, how ever, I will disagree with
you about the nazi part. Nazi was just a shorted form of NSDAP, national
socialists german workers party. It was a political party. So, I do
seperate German Navy from nazi's, or nazi navy. As for the submarines that
the German Navy was planning onn building, yes the Type XIX and Type XX
were ambitious. They did end up using the Type IX, as well as the Type XB
for cargo. The Kraka is a very beautiful submarine. I would be interested
in knowing the cost of building the Kraka. And yes you are correct, that
there is no right way to do something that is wrong.
James
Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk> wrote:
Sirs,
Submarine technology have often been used for malice purposes -
ranging from anti merchant shipping campaigns during the two world wars to
nuclear deterrent during the cold war and today. Bad of cause depends on
the view - fact is the submarine comes out very successful in most of these
missions and may today be considered one of the most effective navel
weapons in existence.
If the drug smugglers did it right - with real uboats outfitted
with diesel electric propulsion - and using snorkels - frankly the transit
from south American waters to US waters would be very safe for them - when
having the alternatives in mind. Problems arise when on loading and off
loading the cargo - but even this has a technical solution.
I am sure the submarine would serve its master as well as it
served the Germans, US Navy and Soviet Red Fleet in its day. Drugs destroys
the life of many people - and causes an incredible amount of crime - and I
hope those making the profit will be on trail - but like the in the case of
the
Nazi´s I am impressed with the audacity that they display by
trying to build an functional long range
smuggling boat, while I hope for their defeat...
One more reason - that I am surprised that the highest bid for
Kraka until now is 100 US $
It can take 500 kg cargo - it can do the transit submerged and
or snorkeling and can be outfitted for long range... : o) and would be a
fine iron coffin if anything went wrong...
There is no way to do something that is wrong in the right
way...
Regards...
Peter
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