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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another

To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another
From: irox <irox@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 19:31:08 -0400 (EDT)
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Reply-to: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
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I seem to remember something very resently (earlier this year?) about
a Chinese sub surfacing within kill range of US carrier group on
exercise in the pacific (may have some details wrong, the there was a 
lot noise about it in the press).  I don't think any nation's ability
to detect subs is any where near as advanced or effective as they claim.

Ian.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk>
>Sent: Aug 9, 2007 6:46 PM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another "drug" sub captured / submarine detection.
>
>Sirs...
>
>On the subject of submarine stealth...
>
>War is about deception, cheating - hitting where the enemy least expect it - 
>not honorable fight.
>Its not limited to the battlefield - its start when you make up your brand - 
>or image. Part of that
>is to tell anybody that you can smell what they are thinking about.
>
>Using logic - we can go behind the deception. Why are navies around the 
>world continuating to build both nuclear and conventional diesel electric 
>submarines - if there was a super sensor that could cheaply and reliably 
>detect such vessels ?
>
>From world war one until today the most efficient submarine detector is that 
>one of your ships blow up. Then you know he is there and you can start the 
>time consuming and expensive process of tracking him down and eventually 
>destroy the submarine - if you are lucky.
>
>A submarine spying - that is - not attacking is a much harder target since 
>it does not have to give up much of its stealth in order to make its attack. 
>A submarine smuggling - is in an even better tactical situation. "Cargo" can 
>be stored outside the hull, in zero buoyancy containers that are dropped in 
>shallow water near the coast of the "costumer" nation. Scuba divers will 
>pick it up. The containers make the cargo limited only by their drag.
>
>The intense coastal traffic of leisure vessels, fishing vessels and other 
>sources of noise would drown the low noise of the sub...
>
>Frankly - with the right kind of boat - it would be very easy. I completely 
>disagree with you - I am sorry...
>
>Two examples to support my claim:
>
>After the Soviet U137 whiskey class grounded deep into Swedish waters in the 
>80´ies - the Swedish navy spent a lot of effort into ASW - and build to 
>midgets to function as targets. This was the S01 and S02. Those boats have 
>slightly higher performance than Kraka - but are not outside the 
>possibilities of rich people. I started work on Kraka just after one of 
>these boats crew visited me in 2003.Hans Jacobson - retired submarine expert 
>from the Swedish navy could tell me - that by that time the navy found it 
>virtually impossible to detect the two small boats - they were able to sneak 
>directly into the harbor of Stockholm - while the helicopter pilots were 
>still dumping sonar buoy´s of the coats being sure that they were close to a 
>"kill"
>
>The S01 and S02 are crude submarines build from ordinary magnetic steals, 
>they are not using any advanced rubber coating or advanced sound dampening - 
>but they are small - very small.
>
>The size of a submarine is directly affecting its detectability. A SSBN 
>using the highest of stealth technology may reduce its detectability 
>tenfold - making about as difficult to find as a boat ten times 
>smaller...but that is still BIG. Its feature - is its mobility in the vast 
>areas of the open oceans.
>
>Small coastal submarines of the Royal Danish Navy have on more then one 
>occasion been at launch position to deploy its eight torpedoes at US carrier 
>task forces - in peacetime practice.
>Those boats are old - and technically not much less crude then the Swedish 
>midgets - but non magnetic.
>
>Recently Swedish AIP boats trained with US ASW forces learning them a lesson 
>or two about just how deceptive a sonar target a conventional submarine can 
>be.
>
>Take a look outside in your swimming pool...look close...see that's my 
>periscope on UC-3 taking high definition photos of you...as you write your 
>answer...
>
>Might I add - that I have been closing in Freya to a German missile armed 
>destroyer in Copenhagen habor - being detected only at at distance of three 
>feet - by German sailors smiling and taking pictures...
>
>Regards,
>
>Peter
>
>
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>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: <clientes@tolimared.com>
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:10 PM
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another "drug" sub captured.
>
>
>> Hello Peter,
>>
>> I get from your e-mail that you are kind of surprised that no  trafficker 
>> has made a offer for kraka yet.
>>
>> Studies of blue whales can be made by military hydrophones so that you 
>> can track all individuals of the population of a whole ocean at any  time.
>>
>> So if you can track a blue whale over an ocean - how difficult would  it 
>> be to track a trafficker submarine running a diesel!!! - and this  is 
>> non-classified info from years ago!!!
>>
>> So IF you smuggle by boat the key factor is to camuflate among the 
>> thousands of surface boats a sonar operator has on its screen at any 
>> time. How would you camouflage being the ONLY rare submarine contact 
>> among 100.000 surface contacts.
>>
>> Those guys move a lot of money and they are generally professionals in 
>> what they do - so very view smaller fish are stupid enough to try it 
>> whith a submarine and those who do get caught immediately.
>>
>> Those people know that! so they are not even interested or buying  russian 
>> cold war submarine tecnology that is certainly on market  everywhere - non 
>> of those have a remote chance to stay undetected - no  russian atomic sub 
>> ever left port undetected during cold war or  crossed an ocean 
>> undetected - and this is also declassified info from  years ago you can 
>> get from history channel.
>>
>> Those people buy firms in europe and united states - establish  container 
>> trade and put the stuff in. It is by far harder for  authorities to 
>> monitor a billion of shiping containers properly than  an ocean for a 
>> single rare submarine sonar contact.
>>
>> When i came to colombia from europe i went to naval authorities in 
>> cartagena colombia to check how they would react about the idea to  build 
>> civilian yacht submarines in colombia. I finally was referenced  to a nice 
>> admiral with my fotos of the 20 ton submarine  (concretesubmarine.com) who 
>> shaked my hand and seemed not very  concerned about the possible treat to 
>> national security interests.  "Put a colombian flag on it we register it 
>> as a normal yacht" - that  was all. So the undetectability of submarine 
>> smugglers was not a big  concern - years ago...
>>
>> So if you where concerned your boat sale might attract narcos - relax  - i 
>> really doubt that - narcos go with fast surface boats camouflaged  as 
>> civilian traffic - or with mayor trade streams on freighters - for  good 
>> reasons... so again the captured boat is more the category  "hippie taking 
>> his personal dose home...and all laugh a lot at  capture"...than a serious 
>> submarine threat...
>>
>> Cheers Wil
>> concretesubmarine.com
>> colombia
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk>:
>>
>>> Sirs,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Submarine technology have often been used for malice purposes -   ranging 
>>> from anti merchant shipping campaigns during the two world   wars to 
>>> nuclear deterrent during the cold war and today. Bad of   cause depends 
>>> on the view - fact is the submarine comes out very   successful in most 
>>> of these missions and may today be considered one  of the most effective 
>>> navel weapons in existence.
>>>
>>> If the drug smugglers did it right - with real uboats outfitted with 
>>> diesel electric propulsion - and using snorkels - frankly the   transit 
>>> from south American waters to US waters would be very safe   for them - 
>>> when having the alternatives in mind. Problems arise when  on loading and 
>>> off loading the cargo - but even this has a  technical  solution.
>>>
>>> I am sure the submarine would serve its master as well as it served   the 
>>> Germans, US Navy and Soviet Red Fleet in its day. Drugs destroys  the 
>>> life of many people - and causes an incredible amount of crime  -  and I 
>>> hope those making the profit will be on trail - but like  the  in the 
>>> case of the
>>> Nazi´s I am impressed with the audacity that they display by trying   to 
>>> build an functional long range
>>> smuggling boat, while I hope for their defeat...
>>>
>>> One more reason - that I am surprised that the highest bid for Kraka 
>>> until now is 100 US $
>>> It can take 500 kg cargo - it can do the transit submerged and or 
>>> snorkeling and can be outfitted for long range... : o) and would be   a 
>>> fine iron coffin if anything went wrong...
>>>
>>> There is no way to do something that is wrong in the right way...
>>>
>>> Regards...
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>-- 
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