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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another "drug" sub captured / submarine detection.
Sirs...
On the subject of submarine stealth...
War is about deception, cheating - hitting where the enemy least expect it -
not honorable fight.
Its not limited to the battlefield - its start when you make up your brand -
or image. Part of that
is to tell anybody that you can smell what they are thinking about.
Using logic - we can go behind the deception. Why are navies around the
world continuating to build both nuclear and conventional diesel electric
submarines - if there was a super sensor that could cheaply and reliably
detect such vessels ?
From world war one until today the most efficient submarine detector is that
one of your ships blow up. Then you know he is there and you can start the
time consuming and expensive process of tracking him down and eventually
destroy the submarine - if you are lucky.
A submarine spying - that is - not attacking is a much harder target since
it does not have to give up much of its stealth in order to make its attack.
A submarine smuggling - is in an even better tactical situation. "Cargo" can
be stored outside the hull, in zero buoyancy containers that are dropped in
shallow water near the coast of the "costumer" nation. Scuba divers will
pick it up. The containers make the cargo limited only by their drag.
The intense coastal traffic of leisure vessels, fishing vessels and other
sources of noise would drown the low noise of the sub...
Frankly - with the right kind of boat - it would be very easy. I completely
disagree with you - I am sorry...
Two examples to support my claim:
After the Soviet U137 whiskey class grounded deep into Swedish waters in the
80´ies - the Swedish navy spent a lot of effort into ASW - and build to
midgets to function as targets. This was the S01 and S02. Those boats have
slightly higher performance than Kraka - but are not outside the
possibilities of rich people. I started work on Kraka just after one of
these boats crew visited me in 2003.Hans Jacobson - retired submarine expert
from the Swedish navy could tell me - that by that time the navy found it
virtually impossible to detect the two small boats - they were able to sneak
directly into the harbor of Stockholm - while the helicopter pilots were
still dumping sonar buoy´s of the coats being sure that they were close to a
"kill"
The S01 and S02 are crude submarines build from ordinary magnetic steals,
they are not using any advanced rubber coating or advanced sound dampening -
but they are small - very small.
The size of a submarine is directly affecting its detectability. A SSBN
using the highest of stealth technology may reduce its detectability
tenfold - making about as difficult to find as a boat ten times
smaller...but that is still BIG. Its feature - is its mobility in the vast
areas of the open oceans.
Small coastal submarines of the Royal Danish Navy have on more then one
occasion been at launch position to deploy its eight torpedoes at US carrier
task forces - in peacetime practice.
Those boats are old - and technically not much less crude then the Swedish
midgets - but non magnetic.
Recently Swedish AIP boats trained with US ASW forces learning them a lesson
or two about just how deceptive a sonar target a conventional submarine can
be.
Take a look outside in your swimming pool...look close...see that's my
periscope on UC-3 taking high definition photos of you...as you write your
answer...
Might I add - that I have been closing in Freya to a German missile armed
destroyer in Copenhagen habor - being detected only at at distance of three
feet - by German sailors smiling and taking pictures...
Regards,
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: <clientes@tolimared.com>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another "drug" sub captured.
Hello Peter,
I get from your e-mail that you are kind of surprised that no trafficker
has made a offer for kraka yet.
Studies of blue whales can be made by military hydrophones so that you
can track all individuals of the population of a whole ocean at any time.
So if you can track a blue whale over an ocean - how difficult would it
be to track a trafficker submarine running a diesel!!! - and this is
non-classified info from years ago!!!
So IF you smuggle by boat the key factor is to camuflate among the
thousands of surface boats a sonar operator has on its screen at any
time. How would you camouflage being the ONLY rare submarine contact
among 100.000 surface contacts.
Those guys move a lot of money and they are generally professionals in
what they do - so very view smaller fish are stupid enough to try it
whith a submarine and those who do get caught immediately.
Those people know that! so they are not even interested or buying russian
cold war submarine tecnology that is certainly on market everywhere - non
of those have a remote chance to stay undetected - no russian atomic sub
ever left port undetected during cold war or crossed an ocean
undetected - and this is also declassified info from years ago you can
get from history channel.
Those people buy firms in europe and united states - establish container
trade and put the stuff in. It is by far harder for authorities to
monitor a billion of shiping containers properly than an ocean for a
single rare submarine sonar contact.
When i came to colombia from europe i went to naval authorities in
cartagena colombia to check how they would react about the idea to build
civilian yacht submarines in colombia. I finally was referenced to a nice
admiral with my fotos of the 20 ton submarine (concretesubmarine.com) who
shaked my hand and seemed not very concerned about the possible treat to
national security interests. "Put a colombian flag on it we register it
as a normal yacht" - that was all. So the undetectability of submarine
smugglers was not a big concern - years ago...
So if you where concerned your boat sale might attract narcos - relax - i
really doubt that - narcos go with fast surface boats camouflaged as
civilian traffic - or with mayor trade streams on freighters - for good
reasons... so again the captured boat is more the category "hippie taking
his personal dose home...and all laugh a lot at capture"...than a serious
submarine threat...
Cheers Wil
concretesubmarine.com
colombia
Quoting Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk>:
Sirs,
Submarine technology have often been used for malice purposes - ranging
from anti merchant shipping campaigns during the two world wars to
nuclear deterrent during the cold war and today. Bad of cause depends
on the view - fact is the submarine comes out very successful in most
of these missions and may today be considered one of the most effective
navel weapons in existence.
If the drug smugglers did it right - with real uboats outfitted with
diesel electric propulsion - and using snorkels - frankly the transit
from south American waters to US waters would be very safe for them -
when having the alternatives in mind. Problems arise when on loading and
off loading the cargo - but even this has a technical solution.
I am sure the submarine would serve its master as well as it served the
Germans, US Navy and Soviet Red Fleet in its day. Drugs destroys the
life of many people - and causes an incredible amount of crime - and I
hope those making the profit will be on trail - but like the in the
case of the
Nazi´s I am impressed with the audacity that they display by trying to
build an functional long range
smuggling boat, while I hope for their defeat...
One more reason - that I am surprised that the highest bid for Kraka
until now is 100 US $
It can take 500 kg cargo - it can do the transit submerged and or
snorkeling and can be outfitted for long range... : o) and would be a
fine iron coffin if anything went wrong...
There is no way to do something that is wrong in the right way...
Regards...
Peter
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