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Joe, Glad to see that you have come back to this issue,
thought you had missed the point. It is my feeling (don’t have
anything off the top of my head to substantiate it) that your alternate flow
route is a bad idea. For the size of your sub, the separation of your
rear twin thrusters should get you some turning motion when they are run in alternate
directions. Also remember to get left- and right-turning props so that
torque issues are nullified. R/J2
Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas A skimmer afloat is but
a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge. -----Original Message----- Jay, I had not thought of that either, that is yet...another
nugget in the pan! :) Now that the subject of the X configuration has been
brought up, I have been bothered about the solution to an issue you once
mentioned regarding surfaced use of a bow thruster in this X, when the
opening is above the waterline. I've got enough thrusters already, so I really don't want
a dedicated surface lateral but, I sure do need the capability,
particularly in tight marinas, NR-2 will not answer rudder below 2 kts, and I
am not too sure yet about what kind of twisting moment I can expect from the
mains in opposition as they are spaced fairly close. So I'd like to "float" an idea which may or may
not be viable regarding "feed water" to the thrusters while on the
surface....... http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=269116&pid=7075983&myphotos=1 In any case, there is a problem with surfaced
maneuvering, that needs to be resolved somehow. Joe >From: "Jay K. Jeffries"
<bottomgun@mindspring.com> >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> >Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on
construction (I'm new so my >research is not that thorough) >Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 19:37:58 -0400 > >Joe, > >A further reason for this configuration is that a
vertical thruster will >either suck in mud or stir up the bottom directly in
your vision path. > >R/Jay > > > >Respectfully, > >Jay K. Jeffries > >Andros Is., Bahamas > > > >A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built
it will not plunge. > > > >From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org >[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On
Behalf Of Joseph Perkel >Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 7:12 PM >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on
construction (I'm new so my >research is not that thorough) > > > >James, > >The software is Rhinomarine, (rhino3d.com). > >No propane tank,....same as K boats, rolled ASTM 516
steel. > >Length is 27' overall, pressure hull diameter
42", weight 11,500 lbs, give >or take...Accurate weight and balance table yet to be
done, I will do this >after I hash out the final concept. The general
specifications of PC-5C, is >the model. http://busby.psubs.org/html/page-176.html > >".....With the current thruster angles....the
controls should be >microcontroller based......" > >Ah, yes...the thrusters! :) , and I just learned
something from you...more >on that in a moment. Why the 45 degree orientation you
ask?.....several >(not >yet chiseled in granite), reasons. > >1- I need that orientation up forward, if I hope to
have any kind of >forward >view-port. As it is, the design requires significant
camera coverage. > >2- This orientation with proper controllers as you
note, can and has been >successfully used in opposition and, in concert for
spectacular >maneuverability, up / down, left / right. Also, this
boat will be heavy so, >the thrusters in opposition to spin her about the
vertical axis in her own >Length, with a snappy response......can only be a
plus. > >3- The last reason, is mimicking the NR-1 in as many
ways possible. > >"......This is provided the shaft drag (seals)
on each motor are relatively >close......." > >Now this is the little nugget I just got from you.
Minute differences in >shaft seal drag and, how that might effect these
little guys controller >wise, did not occur to me. It just so happens, that
with my newly planned >home machine shop, that I recently decided the four
maneuvering thrusters >would be using magnetic couplers. The two main motors
aft, are likely to >remain shafts. All of these, thrusters and the main
motors, will be built >before the sub is. > >I had decided that six rotating shafts, is asking too
much from the odds >maker. But now that you mentioned that, I suspect the
magnetic couplers >should be in a better position to be clones of one
another. > >Thanks James, may I suggest that you post links for
appropriate suppliers >regarding motor controller electronics on the PSUB
web site. > >Joe > > > > > > _____ > > >From: "Lil Brother LLC"
<lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net> >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on
construction (I'm new so my >research is not that thorough) >Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:52:30 -0500 > >Joe, > > > >Wow....those are great design elements......something
like I was >thinking....but with a double stepped sail. > > > >Could I ask what software you used to do the
drawings........ > > > >Thanks for the websites....I know there is much
reading to be done. That is >the reason I put in the header my research was not
thorough. > > > >I noticed your design seems to revolve around a
propane tank. I think that >is a great idea.... > > > >How large will the finished design be? > > > >I will help in any way that I can. The problem with >electronics......sometimes it takes more than one try
to get what you are >looking for. The first try may work....but it hardly
ever works exactly >like >you want.(My experience) > > > >I do have a concern about you design. (Please
remember I'm not versed with >much submarine knowledge) I'm worried about your
thruster angles. To use >the >thrusters efficiently they would have to be pretty
well matched to do a >coordinated hover turn. (jump from sea floor spin 180
degree and set back >down) I don't think it is a danger, just could be
very frustrating. Can I >ask why you didn't orient them vertically and
horizontally? Or why they are >not at more of a vertical angle? > > > >With the current thruster angles....the controls
should be microcontroller >based. It would be able to balance the thrust between
the 4 much faster and >more even than you could manually.This is provided
the shaft drag (seals) >on >each motor are relatively close. > > > > > > > > > > > >James Long >Owner/Designer >Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division) > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Joseph Perkel
<mailto:joeperkel@hotmail.com> > >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org > >Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:03 AM > >Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on
construction (I'm new so my >research is not that thorough) > > > >James, > >".... I know totally encapsulating(
mostly.....the top hatch could never be >totally surrounded) the crew compartment within a
ballast area...." > >This is one of several viable design considerations
for soft tanks as >specified by the text "Concepts in Submarine
Design", (highly recommended). >It also happens to be my choice for my own >design...http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=269116&pid=7063561 > >My suggestion for someone new, is to
read...read...read and then...read >again. Did I mention read! :) > >Besides the online Busby manual on the PSUBS web
site, I highly recommend >and have found a gold mine of information in the
NAVPERS fleet boat >manuals...http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/index.htm > >As you are an electronics expert, perhaps I may ask
you a thing or two >regarding systems integration when the time
comes...not quite yet as I am >far from it at this point. > >Joe > > > _____ > > >From: "Lil Brother LLC"
<lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net> >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on
construction (I'm new so my >research is not that thorough) >Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:05:24 -0500 > >First I would like to thank everyone for a warm
welcome. It is nice > >to see a group of people that openly accepts the
new guy to the > >group. > > > >I have a question or two that can be broken up
into various > >departments: > > > >1. If the ballast tanks were to totally surround
the crew > >compartment, could the ballast area be used
structurally? > > > > I mean if the air were
purged, then the ballast area totally > >sealed (with valves). Would this enhance the
structure to help with > >the pressure at depth? > > > > I figure since this area
would be totally filled with water > >(which doesn't compress easily) it would add
pressure resistance of > >the hull. (I'm only guessing at this......so
anyone could point out > >the error in my view) > > > > I know totally encapsulating(
mostly.....the top hatch could > >never be totally surrounded) the crew
compartment within a ballast > >area would be a major pain, and would be hard to
up keep over a long > > period of time, but it
may be worth the while if the design is > >possible. > > > >2. I've noticed a very strange item on the X300(
nice fiberglass > >single place, dolphin shaped sub) aft end. I'm
very curious what the > >item is. I would also like to know what type of
propulsion the sub > >uses. > > > >3. Are there any electronic valves out there
that are pressure rated > >for our uses. I would like some companies to
checkout to see if I > >can use them for ballast control. > > > >4. What is the typical way of actuating bow and
stern control > >planes? > > > >Any other things you would like to point
out.....would be > >appreciated. I do not have any materials to read
regarding the > >design and construction of a sub. My area is
very rural and the > >library is much to be desired. > > > > > >James Long > >Owner/Designer > >Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division) > > > > > > > > > > >
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