From: "Jay K. Jeffries" <bottomgun@mindspring.com>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
research is not that thorough)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 19:37:58 -0400
Joe,
A further reason for this configuration is that a vertical thruster will
either suck in mud or stir up the bottom directly in your vision path.
R/Jay
Respectfully,
Jay K. Jeffries
Andros Is., Bahamas
A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge.
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Perkel
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 7:12 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
research is not that thorough)
James,
The software is Rhinomarine, (rhino3d.com).
No propane tank,....same as K boats, rolled ASTM 516 steel.
Length is 27' overall, pressure hull diameter 42", weight 11,500 lbs, give
or take...Accurate weight and balance table yet to be done, I will do this
after I hash out the final concept. The general specifications of PC-5C, is
the model. http://busby.psubs.org/html/page-176.html
".....With the current thruster angles....the controls should be
microcontroller based......"
Ah, yes...the thrusters! :) , and I just learned something from you...more
on that in a moment. Why the 45 degree orientation you ask?.....several
(not
yet chiseled in granite), reasons.
1- I need that orientation up forward, if I hope to have any kind of
forward
view-port. As it is, the design requires significant camera coverage.
2- This orientation with proper controllers as you note, can and has been
successfully used in opposition and, in concert for spectacular
maneuverability, up / down, left / right. Also, this boat will be heavy so,
the thrusters in opposition to spin her about the vertical axis in her own
Length, with a snappy response......can only be a plus.
3- The last reason, is mimicking the NR-1 in as many ways possible.
"......This is provided the shaft drag (seals) on each motor are relatively
close......."
Now this is the little nugget I just got from you. Minute differences in
shaft seal drag and, how that might effect these little guys controller
wise, did not occur to me. It just so happens, that with my newly planned
home machine shop, that I recently decided the four maneuvering thrusters
would be using magnetic couplers. The two main motors aft, are likely to
remain shafts. All of these, thrusters and the main motors, will be built
before the sub is.
I had decided that six rotating shafts, is asking too much from the odds
maker. But now that you mentioned that, I suspect the magnetic couplers
should be in a better position to be clones of one another.
Thanks James, may I suggest that you post links for appropriate suppliers
regarding motor controller electronics on the PSUB web site.
Joe
_____
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
research is not that thorough)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:52:30 -0500
Joe,
Wow....those are great design elements......something like I was
thinking....but with a double stepped sail.
Could I ask what software you used to do the drawings........
Thanks for the websites....I know there is much reading to be done. That is
the reason I put in the header my research was not thorough.
I noticed your design seems to revolve around a propane tank. I think that
is a great idea....
How large will the finished design be?
I will help in any way that I can. The problem with
electronics......sometimes it takes more than one try to get what you are
looking for. The first try may work....but it hardly ever works exactly
like
you want.(My experience)
I do have a concern about you design. (Please remember I'm not versed with
much submarine knowledge) I'm worried about your thruster angles. To use
the
thrusters efficiently they would have to be pretty well matched to do a
coordinated hover turn. (jump from sea floor spin 180 degree and set back
down) I don't think it is a danger, just could be very frustrating. Can I
ask why you didn't orient them vertically and horizontally? Or why they are
not at more of a vertical angle?
With the current thruster angles....the controls should be microcontroller
based. It would be able to balance the thrust between the 4 much faster and
more even than you could manually.This is provided the shaft drag (seals)
on
each motor are relatively close.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Perkel <mailto:joeperkel@hotmail.com>
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:03 AM
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
research is not that thorough)
James,
".... I know totally encapsulating( mostly.....the top hatch could never be
totally surrounded) the crew compartment within a ballast area...."
This is one of several viable design considerations for soft tanks as
specified by the text "Concepts in Submarine Design", (highly recommended).
It also happens to be my choice for my own
design...http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=269116&pid=7063561
My suggestion for someone new, is to read...read...read and then...read
again. Did I mention read! :)
Besides the online Busby manual on the PSUBS web site, I highly recommend
and have found a gold mine of information in the NAVPERS fleet boat
manuals...http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/index.htm
As you are an electronics expert, perhaps I may ask you a thing or two
regarding systems integration when the time comes...not quite yet as I am
far from it at this point.
Joe
_____
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
research is not that thorough)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:05:24 -0500
>First I would like to thank everyone for a warm welcome. It is nice
>to see a group of people that openly accepts the new guy to the
>group.
>
>I have a question or two that can be broken up into various
>departments:
>
>1. If the ballast tanks were to totally surround the crew
>compartment, could the ballast area be used structurally?
>
> I mean if the air were purged, then the ballast area totally
>sealed (with valves). Would this enhance the structure to help with
>the pressure at depth?
>
> I figure since this area would be totally filled with water
>(which doesn't compress easily) it would add pressure resistance of
>the hull. (I'm only guessing at this......so anyone could point out
>the error in my view)
>
> I know totally encapsulating( mostly.....the top hatch could
>never be totally surrounded) the crew compartment within a ballast
>area would be a major pain, and would be hard to up keep over a long
> period of time, but it may be worth the while if the design is
>possible.
>
>2. I've noticed a very strange item on the X300( nice fiberglass
>single place, dolphin shaped sub) aft end. I'm very curious what the
>item is. I would also like to know what type of propulsion the sub
>uses.
>
>3. Are there any electronic valves out there that are pressure rated
>for our uses. I would like some companies to checkout to see if I
>can use them for ballast control.
>
>4. What is the typical way of actuating bow and stern control
>planes?
>
>Any other things you would like to point out.....would be
>appreciated. I do not have any materials to read regarding the
>design and construction of a sub. My area is very rural and the
>library is much to be desired.
>
>
>James Long
>Owner/Designer
>Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
>
>
>
>
>
>************************************************************************
>************************************************************************
>************************************************************************
>The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
>CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
>because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive
>messages
>from our organization.
>
>If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
>link below or send a blank email message to:
> removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>
>Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
>automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
>our server receiving your request.
>
>PSUBS.ORG
>PO Box 53
>Weare, NH 03281
>603-529-1100
>************************************************************************
>************************************************************************
>************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
The
personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal CAN-SPAM
Act
of 2003. Your email address appears in our database because either you, or
someone you know, requested you receive messages from our organization. If
you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the link
below
or send a blank email message to: removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an automated
process and should be complete within five minutes of our server receiving
your request. PSUBS.ORG PO Box 53 Weare, NH 03281 603-529-1100
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
The
personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal CAN-SPAM
Act
of 2003. Your email address appears in our database because either you, or
someone you know, requested you receive messages from our organization. If
you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the link
below
or send a blank email message to: removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an automated
process and should be complete within five minutes of our server receiving
your request. PSUBS.ORG PO Box 53 Weare, NH 03281 603-529-1100
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************