The software is Rhinomarine, (rhino3d.com).
I wish I had Rhinomarine.....but I'm using Inventor
and Solidworks. Bummer....I would like to share.
No propane tank,....same as K boats, rolled ASTM 516 steel.
Oh....I thought the K boats used
a propane tank.....my mistake.
Length is 27' overall, pressure hull diameter 42", weight 11,500 lbs,
give or take...Accurate weight and balance table yet to be done, I will do
this after I hash out the final concept. The general specifications
of PC-5C, is the model. http://busby.psubs.org/html/page-176.html
Hmmm.....pretty large sub, but
I'm making these observations from an ignorance view.
".....With the current thruster
angles....the controls should be microcontroller
based......"
Ah, yes...the thrusters! :) , and I
just learned something from you...more on that in a moment. Why the
45 degree orientation you ask?.....several (not yet chiseled in
granite), reasons.
1- I need that orientation up forward, if I hope to have any kind
of forward view-port. As it is, the design requires significant camera
coverage.
I had noticed that.....there are not very many good
view port locations......hence the reason I was going to use a stepped
sail with clear dome hatches.
2- This orientation with proper controllers as you note, can and has
been successfully used in opposition and, in concert for spectacular
maneuverability, up / down, left / right. Also, this boat will be heavy
so, the thrusters in opposition to spin her about the vertical axis in her
own Length, with a snappy response......can only be a plus.
Granted.....I agree....it is the best option...but
can create a complex control system.
3- The last reason, is mimicking the NR-1 in as many ways possible.
Ah Plaigerism is the biggest form of
flattery.
"......This is provided the shaft drag
(seals) on each motor are relatively close......."
Now this is the little nugget I just got from
you. Minute differences in shaft seal drag and, how that might effect
these little guys controller wise, did not occur to me. It just so
happens, that with my newly planned home machine shop, that I recently
decided the four maneuvering thrusters would be using magnetic couplers.
The two main motors aft, are likely to remain shafts. All of these,
thrusters and the main motors, will be built before the sub is.
The difference will largly be
dependant on the HP rating of the motors. The smaller the motor...the more
the drag will affect them(matching).
I had decided that six rotating shafts, is
asking too much from the odds maker. But now that you mentioned that, I
suspect the magnetic couplers should be in a better position to be clones
of one another.
Agreed, I think that using
magnetic couplers are the best choice with respect to your design.
Thanks James, may I suggest that you post links
for appropriate suppliers regarding motor controller electronics on the
PSUB web site.
Well.....unfortunately.....there
are not available controllers for such a beast. Most controllers are built
for specific reasons....and subs use more things to achieve their purpose(
more of a concert, than a single instrument). I would think it would be
better to list motor drivers and such....then let people build the system
they need....or have someone else to do so. There are many factors to
consider, like your case, you are using 4 thrusters together to achieve a
desired movement......Just the actual levers for the control of the sub
could be confusing, and should be something you are thinking about. I
recommend a joystick that has three movable axis and some buttons.
Forward/back, left/right, and twist(this stick alone would control your
angled thrusters) Then you could add a button for just vertical thrust.
then you would have a secondary stick for just the forward motion
thruster(s) and possibly rudder control. This would be a pretty simple
control arrangement for the sub. One hand for pitch angle and spin.....the
other for forward speed regular turning.
Joe
From: "Lil Brother LLC"
<lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To:
<personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my research is
not that thorough)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:52:30
-0500
Joe,
Wow....those are great design
elements......something like I was thinking....but with a double stepped
sail.
Could I ask what software you used to do
the drawings........
Thanks for the websites....I know there is
much reading to be done. That is the reason I put in the header my
research was not thorough.
I noticed your design seems to revolve
around a propane tank. I think that is a great idea....
How large will the finished design
be?
I will help in any way that I can. The
problem with electronics......sometimes it takes more than one try to
get what you are looking for. The first try may work....but it hardly
ever works exactly like you want.(My experience)
I do have a concern about you design.
(Please remember I'm not versed with much submarine knowledge) I'm
worried about your thruster angles. To use the thrusters efficiently
they would have to be pretty well matched to do a coordinated hover
turn. (jump from sea floor spin 180 degree and set back down)
I don't think it is a danger, just could
be very frustrating. Can I ask why you didn't orient them vertically and
horizontally? Or why they are not at more of a vertical
angle?
With the current thruster angles....the
controls should be microcontroller based. It would be able to balance
the thrust between the 4 much faster and more even than you
could manually.This is provided the shaft drag (seals) on each motor are
relatively close.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument
Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007
8:03 AM
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some
thoughts on construction (I'm new so my research is not that
thorough)
James,
".... I know totally encapsulating(
mostly.....the top hatch could never be totally surrounded) the crew
compartment within a ballast area...."
This is one of
several viable design considerations for soft tanks as specified
by the text "Concepts in Submarine Design", (highly
recommended). It also happens to be my choice for my own
design...http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=269116&pid=7063561
My suggestion for someone new, is to
read...read...read and then...read again. Did I mention read!
:)
Besides the online Busby manual on the
PSUBS web site, I highly recommend and have found a gold mine of
information in the NAVPERS fleet boat
manuals...http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/index.htm
As you are an electronics expert, perhaps
I may ask you a thing or two regarding systems integration when the
time comes...not quite yet as I am far from it at this
point.
Joe
From: "Lil Brother LLC"
<lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my research is not that
thorough)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:05:24
-0500
>First I would like to thank everyone for a warm
welcome. It is nice
>to see a group of people that openly
accepts the new guy to the
>group.
>
>I have a
question or two that can be broken up into various
>departments:
>
>1. If the ballast tanks were to
totally surround the crew
>compartment, could the ballast
area be used structurally?
>
> I
mean if the air were purged, then the ballast area totally
>sealed (with valves). Would this enhance the structure to
help with
>the pressure at
depth?
>
> I figure since this
area would be totally filled with water
>(which doesn't
compress easily) it would add pressure resistance of
>the
hull. (I'm only guessing at this......so anyone could point out
>the error in my
view)
>
> I know totally
encapsulating( mostly.....the top hatch could
>never be
totally surrounded) the crew compartment within a ballast
>area would be a major pain, and would be hard to up keep
over a long
> period of time, but it
may be worth the while if the design is
>possible.
>
>2. I've noticed a very strange item
on the X300( nice fiberglass
>single place, dolphin shaped
sub) aft end. I'm very curious what the
>item is. I would
also like to know what type of propulsion the sub
>uses.
>
>3. Are there any electronic valves out
there that are pressure rated
>for our uses. I would like
some companies to checkout to see if I
>can use them for
ballast control.
>
>4. What is the typical way of
actuating bow and stern control
>planes?
>
>Any
other things you would like to point out.....would be
>appreciated. I do not have any materials to read regarding
the
>design and construction of a sub. My area is very rural
and the
>library is much to be
desired.
>
>
>James
Long
>Owner/Designer
>Lil Brother LLC (Instrument
Division)
>
>
>
>
>
>************************************************************************
>************************************************************************
>************************************************************************
>The
personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US
Federal
>CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address
appears in our database
>because either you, or someone you
know, requested you receive
>messages
>from our
organization.
>
>If you want to be removed from this
mailing list simply click on the
>link below or send a blank
email message to:
>
removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>
>Removal of
your email address from this mailing list occurs by
an
>automated process and should be complete within five
minutes of
>our server receiving your
request.
>
>PSUBS.ORG
>PO Box 53
>Weare,
NH 03281
>603-529-1100
>************************************************************************
>************************************************************************
>************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive
messages from our organization. If you want to be removed from this
mailing list simply click on the link below or send a blank email
message to: removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org Removal of your
email address from this mailing list occurs by an automated process
and should be complete within five minutes of our server receiving
your request. PSUBS.ORG PO Box 53 Weare, NH 03281 603-529-1100
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************