From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
research is not that thorough)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:02:58 -0500
Joe,
Red this time to keep from confusing the point further.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Perkel
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so
my research is not that thorough)
James,
".....One hand for pitch angle and spin.....the other for forward speed
regular turning....."
Aha.....you were listening, this was between the lines! :) All of this
kind of design minutia I will have to take on one at a time in turn. The
sub, really is a compilation of all my life's interests.
I try to pay attention and add ideas where I can. The great thing about
groups discussing different ideas.
She is big as you noted. The size increase over my previous Alvin Jr.
concept, is based upon my "listening" to something Peter said not to long
ago regarding trailer-able vs marina subs. He said that once you decide on
dockside, the size and amenities of the sub "explodes exponentially" as a
result.
I see.....the sub is pretty big for one person to design without help. I
do like your design.....it is really nice...and just about what I have
thought about.
NR-2 is a compromise to allow seasonal transport via heavy equipment
trailer between the marina and, my build site.
We will have to see some sketches of your design ideas to better picture
the "stepped sail and domes", look forward to it!
I'll draw up a sail (since I haven't started designing as of yet, but it
shouldn't take me but an hour or so to do. I'll email it directly to
you....where I don't use up the list bandwidth.
Joe
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so
my research is not that thorough)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:58:36 -0500
Joe,
I'm typing my text in blue to keep it all straight.
The software is Rhinomarine, (rhino3d.com).
I wish I had Rhinomarine.....but I'm using Inventor and Solidworks.
Bummer....I would like to share.
No propane tank,....same as K boats, rolled ASTM 516 steel.
Oh....I thought the K boats used a propane tank.....my mistake.
Length is 27' overall, pressure hull diameter 42", weight 11,500
lbs, give or take...Accurate weight and balance table yet to be done, I
will do this after I hash out the final concept. The general specifications
of PC-5C, is the model. http://busby.psubs.org/html/page-176.html
Hmmm.....pretty large sub, but I'm making these observations from an
ignorance view.
".....With the current thruster angles....the controls should be
microcontroller based......"
Ah, yes...the thrusters! :) , and I just learned something from
you...more on that in a moment. Why the 45 degree orientation you
ask?.....several (not yet chiseled in granite), reasons.
1- I need that orientation up forward, if I hope to have any kind of
forward view-port. As it is, the design requires significant camera
coverage.
I had noticed that.....there are not very many good view port
locations......hence the reason I was going to use a stepped sail with
clear dome hatches.
2- This orientation with proper controllers as you note, can and has
been successfully used in opposition and, in concert for spectacular
maneuverability, up / down, left / right. Also, this boat will be heavy so,
the thrusters in opposition to spin her about the vertical axis in her own
Length, with a snappy response......can only be a plus.
Granted.....I agree....it is the best option...but can create a
complex control system.
3- The last reason, is mimicking the NR-1 in as many ways possible.
Ah Plaigerism is the biggest form of flattery.
"......This is provided the shaft drag (seals) on each motor are
relatively close......."
Now this is the little nugget I just got from you. Minute
differences in shaft seal drag and, how that might effect these little guys
controller wise, did not occur to me. It just so happens, that with my
newly planned home machine shop, that I recently decided the four
maneuvering thrusters would be using magnetic couplers. The two main motors
aft, are likely to remain shafts. All of these, thrusters and the main
motors, will be built before the sub is.
The difference will largly be dependant on the HP rating of the
motors. The smaller the motor...the more the drag will affect
them(matching).
I had decided that six rotating shafts, is asking too much from the
odds maker. But now that you mentioned that, I suspect the magnetic
couplers should be in a better position to be clones of one another.
Agreed, I think that using magnetic couplers are the best choice
with respect to your design.
Thanks James, may I suggest that you post links for appropriate
suppliers regarding motor controller electronics on the PSUB web site.
Well.....unfortunately.....there are not available controllers for
such a beast. Most controllers are built for specific reasons....and subs
use more things to achieve their purpose( more of a concert, than a single
instrument). I would think it would be better to list motor drivers and
such....then let people build the system they need....or have someone else
to do so. There are many factors to consider, like your case, you are using
4 thrusters together to achieve a desired movement......Just the actual
levers for the control of the sub could be confusing, and should be
something you are thinking about. I recommend a joystick that has three
movable axis and some buttons. Forward/back, left/right, and twist(this
stick alone would control your angled thrusters) Then you could add a
button for just vertical thrust. then you would have a secondary stick for
just the forward motion thruster(s) and possibly rudder control. This would
be a pretty simple control arrangement for the sub. One hand for pitch
angle and spin.....the other for forward speed regular turning.
Joe
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm
new so my research is not that thorough)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:52:30 -0500
Joe,
Wow....those are great design elements......something like I was
thinking....but with a double stepped sail.
Could I ask what software you used to do the drawings........
Thanks for the websites....I know there is much reading to be
done. That is the reason I put in the header my research was not thorough.
I noticed your design seems to revolve around a propane tank. I
think that is a great idea....
How large will the finished design be?
I will help in any way that I can. The problem with
electronics......sometimes it takes more than one try to get what you are
looking for. The first try may work....but it hardly ever works exactly
like you want.(My experience)
I do have a concern about you design. (Please remember I'm not
versed with much submarine knowledge) I'm worried about your thruster
angles. To use the thrusters efficiently they would have to be pretty well
matched to do a coordinated hover turn. (jump from sea floor spin 180
degree and set back down) I don't think it is a danger, just could be very
frustrating. Can I ask why you didn't orient them vertically and
horizontally? Or why they are not at more of a vertical angle?
With the current thruster angles....the controls should be
microcontroller based. It would be able to balance the thrust between the 4
much faster and more even than you could manually.This is provided the
shaft drag (seals) on each motor are relatively close.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Perkel
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:03 AM
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm
new so my research is not that thorough)
James,
".... I know totally encapsulating( mostly.....the top hatch
could never be totally surrounded) the crew compartment within a ballast
area...."
This is one of several viable design considerations for soft
tanks as specified by the text "Concepts in Submarine Design", (highly
recommended). It also happens to be my choice for my own
design...http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=269116&pid=7063561
My suggestion for someone new, is to read...read...read and
then...read again. Did I mention read! :)
Besides the online Busby manual on the PSUBS web site, I highly
recommend and have found a gold mine of information in the NAVPERS fleet
boat manuals...http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/index.htm
As you are an electronics expert, perhaps I may ask you a thing
or two regarding systems integration when the time comes...not quite yet as
I am far from it at this point.
Joe
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm
new so my research is not that thorough)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:05:24 -0500
>First I would like to thank everyone for a warm welcome. It
is nice
>to see a group of people that openly accepts the new guy to
the
>group.
>
>I have a question or two that can be broken up into various
>departments:
>
>1. If the ballast tanks were to totally surround the crew
>compartment, could the ballast area be used structurally?
>
> I mean if the air were purged, then the ballast area
totally
>sealed (with valves). Would this enhance the structure to
help with
>the pressure at depth?
>
> I figure since this area would be totally filled with
water
>(which doesn't compress easily) it would add pressure
resistance of
>the hull. (I'm only guessing at this......so anyone could
point out
>the error in my view)
>
> I know totally encapsulating( mostly.....the top hatch
could
>never be totally surrounded) the crew compartment within a
ballast
>area would be a major pain, and would be hard to up keep over
a long
> period of time, but it may be worth the while if the
design is
>possible.
>
>2. I've noticed a very strange item on the X300( nice
fiberglass
>single place, dolphin shaped sub) aft end. I'm very curious
what the
>item is. I would also like to know what type of propulsion
the sub
>uses.
>
>3. Are there any electronic valves out there that are
pressure rated
>for our uses. I would like some companies to checkout to see
if I
>can use them for ballast control.
>
>4. What is the typical way of actuating bow and stern control
>planes?
>
>Any other things you would like to point out.....would be
>appreciated. I do not have any materials to read regarding
the
>design and construction of a sub. My area is very rural and
the
>library is much to be desired.
>
>
>James Long
>Owner/Designer
>Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
>
>
>
>
>
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