From: Jim Pesanka <jpesanka@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pat's Group
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:15:26 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Brent!
I, too, have Pat's archive on file, and I recall your involvement at the
Vulcania Submarine Discussion Group.
Personally, I found your contributions to be intentionally jocular, if
unintentionally impractical. By and large, Pat's replies to you were very
patient. You offered your help with his projects, but I don't see him ever
asking for it. And without meaning to offend, I might add that I can't
imagine him needing it.
I understand Pat's goals for the V.S.D.G. I've seen him state
repeatedly that his website is intended as "a place where people can ask
technical questions and receive reliable answers from experienced subbers,
and only experienced subbers." His main concern was to keep his forum from
becoming a source of misinformation, which explains why he chose to answer
technical questions himself.
The problems I've seen, at the V.S.D.G. and elsewhere, frequently
originate with people who mistakenly believe all discussion groups exist
for their own use: as a public soapbox where they are entitled to say and
do anythying they please. The fact is, they don't. That doesn't mean
that the webmaster is a dictator or a bad person. It simply means he has
specific goals for his own website. And it is the failure to accept that
fundamental truth which often leads to hurt feelings.
I believe you misinterpreted what Pat intended for the V.S.D.G. Sub
builders in need of straight answers without a lot of chit-chat will do
well there. Others seeking something else would probably be happier
elsewhere. It doesn't mean that one type of website is good and another
bad, it only means they serve different purposes. There is a need for
both. And until one realizes that and decides where he fits in, he
probably won't be very happy.
Cheers!
Jim
Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hello Brady,
Yes I was a part of Pat's group some time back with my username
being Szybowski. Yes I have whack ideas about submarine designs from time
to time. Perhaps something good will come from my strange ideas in the
field of submarines, perhaps not. But in other areas of my life some of my
strange ideas have panned out and so I will likely always look into them
and see what others think about them, and then sort it all out. Some times
I see right away that an idea will work or not work, and other times it
takes a very long time to get to that point. Some times a new product or
process makes an old dead idea come back to life again.
Some times people don't like it when you disagree with them and they
consider it arguing. I think of these groups as places to test your ideas
in an academic manor. If I don't agree with ones ideas, or statements, I
won't just say that's a bad idea. I will tell them why I disagree, in a
non emotional manor, and then they can respond and enlighten me on areas
they think I missed.
As for Pat, it's not clear why he chose to take a negative path towards
me. For most of the time I was on his forum they were discussing what type
of drag his mini Nautilus would have, weather surface or submerged. He
wanted to know this so he could get a close guess as to the speed he could
get with his squirt drive and/or Minn Kota thruster. A couple of times I
had talked with him about putting his mini Nautilus into a 3D model either
by doing a digital scan to get a point cloud or taking allot of
measurements and manually inputting the data. We decided that a digital
scan wasn't an option and he asked if I could go off of the pictures he
already had posted on his site and then he would take some measurements. We
wanted to do this so I could put the 3D model in a external fluid flow
analysis program I have in Solidworks, to get the drag data.
I started by using some older pictures he had of the sub when it was
called the hyper sub. I did some basic modeling to get the pressure hull
shape so I could start adding all the extras. I spent a fair bit of time
working on this, and was excited to be doing it. I sent him some pics of
the work I had started, stating I know it's not exact, since I don't have
any measurements yet, but you can see where we can start, and all hell
broke loose. He acted as if he had never asked me to work on the model and
said everything was all wrong and how dare I try to copy his work. He said
someone might see your model and think it's really my design and build it
and then kill them selves in it and blame him. I wrote him back asking him
why he was so hot since he had asked me to do to CAD model, and why he had
gone so far out of his way to try to hurt my feelings. His response was
basically that perhaps we shouldn't communicate any longer. So I stopped
posting on his forum.
Long before I even had heard of Pat, I was thinking seriously about
building my dream live aboard submarine on the big island of Hawaii. Pat
got wind of this when I asked if I could visit with him when I moved over,
from time to time, and he tried his hardest to make me believe the big
island (were he lives) was a very bad place to do this. When in fact I had
done a lot of home work, and even lived over there for a short bit to see
if it would work. I still think it is a good idea, and I'm on a path
towards that goal.
Pat had a very hard time letting anyone else in his group answer
beginner questions, or any questions for that manor. He acted like almost
every email was just to him. If he is so busy, then why would be have a
forum, let alone one that he requires all emails to be read by himself
first, before he will consider posting it? I know a few people that are
generally so nice, and then when you lest expect it, they go off like a
volcano, which makes them very stressful to be around. So I stay away from
them if I can.
I'm glad for you Brady, that you have gained some great data from Pat. I
as well, have learned some good things from him. But a person doing allot
of good in the past and/or present, does not mean that person should be
given a pass when they choose to be cruel.
Sincerely,
Brent Hartwig
---------------------------------
From: Brady Burkhart <braydeebee@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cliffs - R300
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 17:33:27 -0700 (PDT)
Wait a minute I know who you are!! You were in Pat's group but you
called yourself "Szybowski." You were always arguing whack ideas with
everybody and then you disappeared. That explains a lot.
FYI, I have all the messages from Pat's group including yours. I
went back and read what he said. Dude you're talking about a man who has
been sharing his knowledge about submarines for something like 30 years and
he still is. He said in all that time most of the people he's ever seen
ask for information never did anything with it and I agree. From what I've
seen on every forum I've ever read, most people see submarines like a
passing fancy they amuse themselves with for a while and then they move on
to something else. That's not being "negative" it's just reality.
I see
Pat as a doer not a talker. I couldn't fault him if he had to spend his
time working rather than answering the same questions over and over again
for people who mainly just want to gawk and gab but the fact is he hasn't
stopped sharing information. I was talking to him last week and he showed
me how to improve the ballast setup on my K350. In all the years I've been
reading about K350s nobody ever mentioned the improvements I got from Pat.
In my experience he is a walking encyclopedia of submarines and if he
knows you are sincere he will help you.
But yeah "szybowski" I remember you made a fool of yourself in Pat's
group and now you are over here imitating his clever phrases and talking
about him. One problem with all groups like these is they attract those
who pit one group against the other. That isn't cool and
doesn't help any of us who are real about building submarines. This rap
shouldn't be happening there. I'm embarrassed at getting drawn into this
and I apologize to the Psubs group. If you have anything else to say about
this you should take it offline.
Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hello Brady,
My Bad, I have checked Pats forum from time to time and had
not seen any thing new since March of this year. Pat shut down the archive
so no body could read the old postings. I had hoped to learn a thing or two
from reading the archive. The last few posting on the forum, Pat was being
very negative and telling everybody basically how they were wasting his
time, and that
people that were asking him about how to build there own sub, would never
likely do so. I've seen a huge surge of sub building in this group in the
last year, and it's invigorating.
There are those out there that believe they are above and beyond the
PSUB's group, and perhaps in some areas they are. How ever I'll bet even
the most advanced minds in this group have learned a fair amount from being
involved in this list. Besides they learned there knowledge and skills from
other experts and a lot of hard work in the past. I have much to learn from
this group, and in return I try to find data that the group can use. Being
skilled and confident in what one does, are attractive traits, arrogance
and excessive ego is not.
In regards to gas engines, I plan to use a Bombardier, Rotax engine
in a separate 1ATM pressure hull.
Cursive">Regards,
Brent Hartwig
"Iron rusts from disuse, stagnant water loses its purity and in cold
weather becomes frozen; so does inaction sap the vigor's of the mind."
- Leonardo da
Vinci
---------------------------------
From: Brady Burkhart <braydeebee@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cliffs - R300
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 04:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
Yo Brent, Pat's forum isn't "dead." He's busy with his Nautilus and
diving helmets but we're all still communicating.
I hear you about the noise and dangers of a gas engine in a small
sub. You might expect that a guy as savvy as Pat Regan thought about that
a long time ago. All I'll say is his way of coping with them is just fully
sick!!! 8^)) I'm not sure if he would mind me talking about that in
detail. I could Email
him and see what he says.
At the end of the day I can't say noise and fire are impossible
obstacles for everyone. Doc Rowe has gas engines in his Bionic Dolphins
and Regan had a working closed circuit engine something like twenty years
ago. As for me I am just a carpenter building a K350 so batteries and
motors are as wild as I get. I hear what you both are saying and
I wouldn't dare to try an engine either. But then I'm not Pat Regan or Doc
Rowe.
Cheers!
Brady
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database because
either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages from our
organization. If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click
on the link below or send a blank email message to:
removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org Removal of your email address from
this mailing list occurs by an automated process and should be complete
within five minutes of our server receiving your request. PSUBS.ORG PO Box
53 Weare, NH 03281 603-529-1100
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.