From: irox <irox@ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:48:25 -0400 (EDT)
>
>The diver flag (red back ground and white diagnal stripe) might be a
>better option since it's probably more widely know. I'm imagining
>that even a couple of yahoos on jetskis will be familar with the
>diver flag, probably not so many will know the "Isolated Danger"
>sign.
>
>If I saw something strange, I would not run from it, I would
>investigate it (sounds, gas, etc.) and/or notify coastgaurd or
>habour authorities (depending on the area). But if it was clear
>that it was there to warn people away, I would understand I need
>to stay away from that area.
>
>Cheers,
> Ian.
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: james@guernseysubmarine.com
> >Sent: May 10, 2007 11:16 AM
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
> >
> >Hi Ken/All
> >
> >With regards to Peter/Kens comments regarding a suddenly appearing buoy attracting boats rather than detering them.
> >
> >What about using the standard marine navigation marker buoy for "Isolated Danger", which is a red and black stripey buoy with 2 black balls on top?
> >
> >This is the standard sign and should be known by most people using the water. It is internationally recognised and should (in theory) send shipping running.
> >
> >Of course there is still the possibility that the person on board the boat doesnt realise the meaning of the buoy.
> >
> >James
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Ken F [mailto:syber_psubber@yahoo.com]
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Sent: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:17:40 -0700 (PDT)
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
> >
> >Peter,
> >
> > I've got a great idea on how to improve on your buoy idea. I understand what you mean about it suddenly appearing and attracting surface craft.
> >So instead, rig it with warning beacons, and a large inflatable banner with a biohazard or radiation sign. Throw in some geiger counter crackling sound effects, a recorded cautionary voice, maybe purge some gas up to the surface..., in 5 minutes you wouldnt have anything within 5 miles around to come up under
> > =P
> >
> >Ken
> >
> > - no actually, in all seriousness, couldnt you just use a normal "warning, do not come near" sign? "Please clear the area" something like that?
> > In lieu of announcing your presence, I like Les's vertical piece of pvc... its lo-tech. And if it hits anything hard enough it'll just snap off.
> >
> >
> >Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk> wrote:
> > v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } Thijs,
> >
> > Mostly we operate a very low speed...in recreational waters...but a silent sailboat still is a problem. Back when I sailed with Freya in 2002 - I used a diver buoy exactly like you describe. It was bright yellow and hade a big diver flag on it. Unfortunately it attracted recreational boats much more than making them stay clear - so I stopped using it.
> >
> > Once you get hit - it really doesn't matter who were right and who were wrong in accordance to maritime law.
> >
> > I like the idea of using hydrophones and visual systems since I feel its us - the submariners - not the other recreational and commersial vessels that
> > must prevent this problem.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Peter
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Thijs Struijs
> > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 9:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
> >
> >
> > Peter,
> >
> > I presume that when you surface you have some speed and you operate in waters were you have to deal with big and noisy ships.
> > For small subs, operating in recreational waters and surfacing at zero speed i was thinking of a buoy as used by scuba divers. The (pressure-resistant) buoy should be attached to a 5 mtr. line. When surfacing you could wait for let's say a minute at 5 mtr.depth before comming to the surface. This works for scuba divers, so why should it not work for subs. If you combine the buoy with a flashing light and a rotating camera it should work even better.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Thijs Struijs
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Peter Madsen
> > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
> >
> >
> > Jay,
> >
> >
> > Kraka, the diesel-electric boat I pilot have both up looking windows and features a periscope. This is based on four cameras each covering 90 deg of the horizon. By choosing to look a say camera four I know that I am looking aft while no two give me the starborad view - and so on. My idea for the final solution on the collision problem was to make a buoy with say 60 feet of cable on it. Its formed like a long pole with the four camera at the top, a flotation device at the middle and ballast at the bottom. Poles standing in the water like this can be quite stable ( provided the uboat don't make way )
> >
> > My experience is that anything on as submarine must be made with great care. We have had many problems with flooded GPS antennae, moisture in the periscope and broken diveplanes ( they protrude ) and the answer is always to make things better, stronger and more carefully. Most of these problems have solutions that can not be found at the drawing board alone.
> >
> > Solving it - is half the fun...
> >
> >
> > One of our special problems is that our boat in only drydocked once a year so many improvements or repairs comes only in these service periods. One of the features of a trailer based submarine is that it sits in your living room...most of the time. This is just not the case wih Kraka.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jay K. Jeffries
> > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:43 AM
> > Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
> >
> >
> > Peter,
> > I agree with you that a collision on or near the surface is one of the most likely major accidents to happen to a PSUB. This is supported by submarine history demonstrating that this is one of the largest causes of submarines under peace-time conditions.
> >
> > The ABS included the requirements for a small porthole in the hatch so that you could look up while approaching the surface and hopefully see the shadow of a vessel overhead that is silent or stopped. Larger submarines with a periscope have the capability to train the scope?s top lens upwards to accomplish the same feat. Many sub?s operating procedures include a pause in ascent near the surface to look and listen for other vessels in the near vicinity.
> >
> > If you do not have much internal noise in your PSUB, you should hear most power vessels while still at some distance. A trainable hydrophone will help discern the direction. The cabled camera is a good substitute for a periscope but will be difficult to obtain a stable image with known viewing direction on the surface. Just remember that gadgets just require more maintenance and can detract from pleasurable operating time.
> > R/Jay
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > Jay K. Jeffries
> > Andros Is., Bahamas
> >
> > A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge.
> >
> >
> > From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Peter Madsen
> >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 6:28 PM
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collition with surface vessel
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Psubbers,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > When people talk of submarine safety the situation most often assumed is a sub in distress on the seabed. This is of cause a very critical situation,
> >
> > and we all design boats that are redundant in many ways so that we hopefully never get in that situation.
> >
> >
> >
> > In my practical experience - however - getting hit by a passing surface vessel when being at or very close to surface is a much more likely incident. Depending on the speed and size of the vessel and submarine any level of damage is possible - and the sub I likely to sink with its pressurehull ruptured to some extent after the collision.
> >
> >
> >
> > We are currently adding hydrophones to Kraka for detection and classification of surface sound contacts, and we are designing a cable camera for the UC3 - that can be send up prior to surfacing. We hope these technical gadgets may make it more safe to operate our subs.
> >
> >
> >
> > The professionel submariners ( navy ) that I have talked to say that they solely depend on their passive sensors - hydrophone arrays - and they have zero way of detecting a drifting - stopped or sailing vessel.
> >
> >
> >
> > What do other non navy submarine operator do - how do you psubbers handle this safety issue ? Most people ask me why we don't just have an underwater radar ?! - or is it sonar - a sea surface hull detection device...like the navy...
> >
> >
> >
> > Well - what do you do ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter Madsen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
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>
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