Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel

Ian / Ken

If you were an independent fast moving submersible....ala say war-boat, a buoy is not an option as any diver will tell you stories of trouble keeping the thing on the surface while swimming along in current. Too big in order to keep this surfaced, is simply too much stuff to drag along.

Also regardless of fault, I have seen many boaters simply disregard a divers flag. Florida now has a boating course requirement but, in years past it was more like ..."My, what a pretty lobster trap that was!"

Safety aside for a moment, all this is part of the fun if you think about it. If Kraka were mine, I would have her bristling with gear. In fact, my second would have a job,... soundman / navigator :)

Scenario:

Running surfaced at five knots with your heading 360 @ 5kts. Wind brisk out of 153 @ 12 kts. Usual fast movers about, soundman will take bearings on prop noises prior to surfacing though so your concern is the two nearest silent targets (sailboats).

One is a 25' heavy displacement type bearing 333 range 3,000 yards, making his hull speed on a beam reach @ 6 kts heading 045. This is a converging course.

The second one is a racing yawl heading away from you bearing 120 range 1,500 yards while he beats to windward @ 120. But he's your target (designate sierra one :), because should he tack around, he could run downwind at you @ 8 or 9 kts! Your upwind of the other guy.

You plot your worse case on this target and proceed to dive accordingly.

Sure would be fun to do it all...but I am a working man after all!

Joe

From:  irox <irox@ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject:  Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
Date:  Thu, 10 May 2007 11:48:25 -0400 (EDT)
>
>The diver flag (red back ground and white diagnal stripe) might be a
>better option since it's probably more widely know.  I'm imagining
>that even a couple of yahoos on jetskis will be familar with the
>diver flag, probably not so many will know the "Isolated Danger"
>sign.
>
>If I saw something strange, I would not run from it, I would
>investigate it (sounds, gas, etc.) and/or notify coastgaurd or
>habour authorities (depending on the area).  But if it was clear
>that it was there to warn people away, I would understand I need
>to stay away from that area.
>
>Cheers,
>   Ian.
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: james@guernseysubmarine.com
> >Sent: May 10, 2007 11:16 AM
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
> >
> >Hi Ken/All
> >
> >With regards to Peter/Kens comments regarding a suddenly appearing buoy attracting boats rather than detering them.
> >
> >What about using the standard marine navigation marker buoy for "Isolated Danger", which is a red and black stripey buoy with 2 black balls on top?
> >
> >This is the standard sign and should be known by most people using the water.  It is internationally recognised and should (in theory) send shipping running.
> >
> >Of course there is still the possibility that the person on board the boat doesnt realise the meaning of the buoy.
> >
> >James
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Ken F [mailto:syber_psubber@yahoo.com]
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Sent: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:17:40 -0700 (PDT)
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
> >
> >Peter,
> >
> >  I've got a great idea on how to improve on your buoy idea.  I understand what you mean about it suddenly appearing and attracting surface craft.
> >So instead, rig it with warning beacons, and a large inflatable banner with a biohazard or radiation sign.  Throw in some geiger counter crackling sound effects, a recorded cautionary voice, maybe purge some gas up to the surface...,   in 5 minutes you wouldnt have anything within 5 miles around to come up under
> >  =P
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >  -  no actually, in all seriousness, couldnt you just use a normal "warning, do not come near" sign?  "Please clear the area"  something like that?
> >  In lieu of announcing your presence, I like Les's vertical piece of pvc...  its lo-tech.  And if it hits anything hard enough it'll just snap off.
> >
> >
> >Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk> wrote:
> >      v\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  o\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  w\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  .shape {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }              Thijs,
> >
> >  Mostly we operate a very low speed...in recreational waters...but a silent sailboat still is a problem. Back when I sailed with Freya in 2002 - I used a diver buoy exactly like you describe. It was bright yellow and hade a big diver flag on it. Unfortunately it attracted recreational boats much more than making them stay clear - so I stopped using it.
> >
> >  Once you get hit - it really doesn't matter who were right and who were wrong in accordance to maritime law.
> >
> >  I like the idea of using hydrophones and visual systems since I feel its us - the submariners - not the other recreational and commersial vessels that
> >  must prevent this problem.
> >
> >  Regards,
> >
> >  Peter
> >    ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: Thijs Struijs
> >  To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >  Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 9:37 AM
> >  Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
> >
> >
> >  Peter,
> >
> >  I presume that when you surface you have some speed and you operate in waters were you have to deal with big and noisy ships.
> >  For small subs, operating in recreational waters and surfacing at zero speed i was thinking of a buoy as used by scuba divers. The (pressure-resistant) buoy should be attached to a 5 mtr. line. When surfacing you could wait for let's say a minute at 5 mtr.depth before comming to the surface. This works for scuba divers, so why should it not work for subs. If you combine the buoy with a flashing light and a rotating camera it should work even better.
> >
> >  Regards,
> >
> >  Thijs Struijs
> >    ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: Peter Madsen
> >  To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >  Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:06 AM
> >  Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
> >
> >
> >  Jay,
> >
> >
> >  Kraka, the diesel-electric boat I pilot have both up looking windows and features a periscope. This is based on four cameras each covering 90 deg of the horizon. By choosing to look a say camera four I know that I am looking aft while no two give me the starborad view - and so on. My idea for the final solution on the collision problem was to make a buoy with say 60 feet of cable on it. Its formed like a long pole with the four camera at the top, a flotation device at the middle and ballast at the bottom. Poles standing in the water like this can be quite stable ( provided the uboat don't make way )
> >
> >  My experience is that anything on as submarine must be made with great care. We have had many problems with flooded GPS antennae, moisture in the periscope and broken diveplanes ( they protrude ) and the answer is always to make things better, stronger and more carefully. Most of these problems have solutions that can not be found at the drawing board alone.
> >
> >  Solving it - is half the fun...
> >
> >
> >  One of our special problems is that our boat in only drydocked once a year so many improvements or repairs comes only in these service periods. One of the features of a trailer based submarine is that it sits in your living room...most of the time. This is just not the case wih Kraka.
> >
> >  Regards,
> >
> >  Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >    ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: Jay K. Jeffries
> >  To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >  Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:43 AM
> >  Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
> >
> >
> >    Peter,
> >  I agree with you that a collision on or near the surface is one of the most likely major accidents to happen to a PSUB.  This is supported by submarine history demonstrating that this is one of the largest causes of submarines under peace-time conditions.
> >
> >  The ABS included the requirements for a small porthole in the hatch so that you could look up while approaching the surface and hopefully see the shadow of a vessel overhead that is silent or stopped.  Larger submarines with a periscope have the capability to train the scope?s top lens upwards to accomplish the same feat.  Many sub?s operating procedures include a pause in ascent near the surface to look and listen for other vessels in the near vicinity.
> >
> >  If you do not have much internal noise in your PSUB, you should hear most power vessels while still at some distance.  A trainable hydrophone will help discern the direction.  The cabled camera is a good substitute for a periscope but will be difficult to obtain a stable image with known viewing direction on the surface.  Just remember that gadgets just require more maintenance and can detract from pleasurable operating time.
> >  R/Jay
> >
> >
> >  Respectfully,
> >  Jay K. Jeffries
> >  Andros Is., Bahamas
> >
> >  A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge.
> >
> >
> >      From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Peter Madsen
> >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 6:28 PM
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collition with surface vessel
> >
> >
> >
> >    Hi Psubbers,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >    When people talk of submarine safety the situation most often assumed is a sub in distress on the seabed. This is of cause a very critical situation,
> >
> >    and we all design boats that are redundant in many ways so that we hopefully never get in that situation.
> >
> >
> >
> >    In my practical experience - however - getting hit by a passing surface vessel when being at or very close to surface is a much more likely incident. Depending on the speed and size of the vessel and submarine any level of damage is possible - and the sub I likely to sink with its pressurehull ruptured to some extent after the collision.
> >
> >
> >
> >    We are currently adding hydrophones to Kraka for detection and classification of surface sound contacts, and we are designing a cable camera for the UC3 - that can be send up prior to surfacing. We hope these technical gadgets may make it more safe to operate our subs.
> >
> >
> >
> >    The professionel submariners ( navy ) that I have talked to say that they solely depend on their passive sensors - hydrophone arrays - and they have zero way of detecting a drifting - stopped or sailing vessel.
> >
> >
> >
> >    What do other non navy submarine operator do - how do you psubbers handle this safety issue ? Most people ask me why we don't just have an underwater radar ?! - or is it sonar - a sea surface hull detection device...like the navy...
> >
> >
> >
> >    Well - what do you do ?
> >
> >
> >
> >    Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> >    Peter Madsen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
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