Anger and mean spiritedness are not hallmarks of an enlightened mind. Gordon Alexander Shakopee, MN Erik Muller wrote: ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages from our organization. If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the link below or send a blank email message to: removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an automated process and should be complete within five minutes of our server receiving your request. PSUBS.ORG PO Box 311 Weare, NH 03281 603-529-1100 ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************Hi Brian Yes I did read them thanks. I thought the content of my email was transperant enough. Since you obviously missed the gist of it, I will spell it out for you. The entire lengthy diatribe was based on the fat that we should allow spearfishing because the 'big guys do it too'. Or a least: 'That we shouldn't get peeved at the spearfishing, because there is environmental destrictuion being caused on a much greater scale elsewhere. This is, quite frankly, and utterly ignorant and very circular arguement, the kind of wonderful logic that wars are built on (i.e. 'you shoot at me, so I'm going to shoot at you back because that makes it ok'). It moronic and helps no-one. You're both wrong and the ocean looses in both directions. Well done and I'm sure your kids will love the fact that there is no longer any weedy seadragon to look at. EM. On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Brian Cox wrote:Erik, Did you even read anything that Bill said!!! You can't just say" none the less" that is not even addressing any of the points that were made. Did you read the parts about the giant fishing ships that haul in tons and tons and tons of fish and also catch protected species. Your points are absurd.Don't you think a more worthy advisary would be those gigantic fishing vessels that scoop up enormous amounts of fish and other species instead of attacking a fellow psubber who is ultimatly trying to change things for the better? Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Muller" <emuller@naic.edu> To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SpearfishingNone the less, The philosophy of many scuba clubs is to leave the marine life untouched. There are good reasons for it. Its up to us to help where we can, not only in the interests of conservation, but also to set a precedent. Want to know how long coral will last if EVERY diver breaks off a piece? and how long will the grouper last if EVERY diver shoots one through the gills? Are you going to CARE when the last giant blue grouper gets skewered? Apparaently not. These comments are on very shaky moral ground: they smack of "everyone else is doing it, so why can't we?" - hardly a convincing or even remotely intelligent argument The next time I feel like being a hypocrite, I can watch you wave your new, spanky, high-powered rifle at me and hope that you have never have any little kids in the house who like shiny things that go bang. You should practice your bowling a little more. Erik M. On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Akins wrote:My thoughts on the morality of spearfishing while using scuba. I live in Florida. Most of the divers I know spearfish at least some, but not always or on every dive. Myself and most of my dive friends just do it enough to keep our freezer full. Have any of you seen the programs on t.v. that occasionally air that show those huge fishing freighters where the whole front end of the freighter opens up so they can haul their giant fish catch aboard? This ship is big and not only pulls in tons of fish but also catches protected species which are injured and die on the deck sometimes before they can be thrown back. Dolphins, sea turtles and other protected species are injured and killed all the time. But does the government put a stop to this? NO! These type of large fishing vessels are actually a floating fish production factory. Not only do they catch quite literally many, many tons of fish along with protected species, but they actually process the fish, package and box them up so they are ready for the shelf as soon as the ship docks. These type of vessels are what is most responsible for the depletion of fish and marine life, NOT the few fish taken by the spearfishing diver who gets a bad reputation because "OH! you better do something Mr. government! He has a gun! He might hurt somebody with that thing!" Guns have become so demonized in the hands of civilians today that even the spearfisherman falls prey to the antigun hysteria. But will the government stop those large fishing vessels? Of course not! Why not? Because people like to eat fish in restaurants. When a person goes hunting in the woods today. They have a wide selection of repeating firearms to hunt with. Even the bowhunter can shoot faster and without distorted vison (and without worrying about sharks) than the spearfisherman can. The spearfisherman only has the equivalent of a bow and arrow to hunt fish with. Kind of like a ancient American Indian hunting a deer with his bow and arrow (except the Indian can reload faster), plus the spearfisherman is looking thru a mask that somewhat distorts his view and makes the fish appear to be larger than it actually is which can throw off his aim. He has to deal with the equivalent of a Grizzly bear (sharks) coming along and trying to either take what he has hunted or actually eat the spearhunter themself! There are no trees to climb to get away from those underwater grizzly bears nor can you run like you can in the woods. You have to hug the bottom and hope the shark goes away or try to make it to the surface and hope he doesn't follow the bloodtrail of your fish catch. I hate sharks, there are a lot of bull sharks around here. I also have a healthy respect for them. Yet there are people who say this is not sporting enough! Some regions havepassed laws that do not allow a spearfisherman to wear scuba. So now not only does he have all the above to deal with, but he has the added riskof being dragged along underwater and drowned by a large grouper he justspeared because "it isn't sporting to wear scuba!!" How many of you have ever speared a large fish and been dragged along underwater by it? You damn wellbetter be good at holding your breath or else you will have to cut yourline. Why don't we make bowhunters in the woods wear a plastic bag over their head when they hunt so they must hold their breath when they hunt??Sound ridiculious and silly? Of course it does. Get my point? Actually I feel the government hampers spearfishermen because they don'tmake as much on taxes on spearfishermen. Oh yes we pay for our fishing license but that is not enough for the government. They get more taxes from thecommercial fishermen for them to fish, they get taxes when the fish are sold,they get taxes when you buy the fish. They only get taxes ONCE from the spearfisherman from his fishing license. Also hassleing the spearhunter goesalong with the agenda of disarming the people and taking guns and any weaponaway from them so they will have to rely on the government for protection and buy their food which makes the government taxes and regulates.When I am hampered by low visibility, a tank and bcd and other equipment onmy back, watching out for sharks, looking thru a distorted view in my mask, and only having one shot before I have to retrieve my spear and reload......I'll be damned if anyone can say that is not sporting! Besides, who says ithas to be sporting? Why does a spearfisherman have to be sporting? Why is it susposedly immoral to spearfish with scuba but it is not immoral forthe floating factories to catch them by the tons with nets? Why not makecommerical fishermen only able to catch their fish with a hook and line or a spear? IT'S UNSPORTING TO CATCH THEM WITH NETS! Now isn't that silly?Would you like to pay the price it would cost you to buy your fish if theyhad to catch them that way?Was it sporting for you to eat your fish last night at your favoriterestaurant that was caught by a floating factory??????? I really am sick of the hypocracy. I am also a member of the American N.R.A. (National Rifle Association)I apologize if I sound cranky and disgusted about this but this hits on mylast nerve and I am tired of the bullsh_t. Of course this is just my opinion from experience. I think I am entitled to that.Nuff said. Kindest Regards, Bill Akins. ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Cox To: Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:04 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Spearfishing Alec, Simon, Cliff, and All ( changing thread name) My main interest in the spearfishing thing is that I would like touse my sub for a possible fishing purpose. Actually farming fish would be a more responsible way to get fish. People need to eat and using a sub for that purpose I think would be a good thing. Afterall many types of fish are getting depleted from over fishing. But there are those who are also against farming fish, They point to diseases that are spread when fish farming operations are set up. I guess those people (PETA) don't want you to utilize the ocean to feed the hungry in any respect .Brian************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages from our organization. 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PSUBS.ORG PO Box 311 Weare, NH 03281 603-529-1100 ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages from our organization. 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