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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Complaints about submersibles visiting the Titanic
These are "tours" not scavenging hunts and grave robbing.
I don't see vendors selling shovels to curious tourists.
I do not think anyone, including me, is suggesting the
public or private to be barred from this activity.
It's the vandalism, defacing, and destruction of such
places and sites that are of concern. And as far as grave
sites go, I don't think the USS Arizona is driven by politics
as much as it is by reverence and tribute given to fallen
WWII vets. After all, it is a rusting hulk of steel that will
disappear in time. Besides, it is a chemical harzard to the
environment because it's still spewing fuel and oil. We should
get rid of it and clean it up. I don't think the dead would
mind...do you?
How many of us have posted commentaries and notices about
documentaries on the History, TLC, and Discovery
Channels about expeditions and archaeology investigations
on wrecks. We are 'interested' in the 'how's and 'whys'
of things. These are well planned and organized searches
and excavations...not by casual poking and proding and
recorded with a video cam.
There are times we are driven by curiousity and a sense of history
and not by politics and legalism.
The Benjamin Franklin sits in the Maritime Museum in Vancouver-CA
rescued from deterioration. The Hunley was carefully raised and
great care being given to it's restoration. There are many other
examples, too. So, why go thru all this trouble for rusting steel
and rotten wood that will disappear in less than a century?
The Titanic tragedy was and is important in discovering the 'how
and why' of the accident so that future tragedies can be avoided
and improvements to ship architecture can be put into place. There
are documentaries on this too recreating what had happen. Had we
let salvagers and relic hunters have their way, perhaps, some of
the aspects of the sinking would go undiscovered.
Had the Titanic sinking occured today "no-one" would be given access.
The British equivalent of the NTSB would be out investigating the
wreck for months if not years.
Also, I think it's unfair to group all scientists and archaeologists
under one political agenda. I think a few of you are driven by
the media spew and emotions. I know people in the field who are
not driven by politics or wish to encroach on individual rights
and access. They simply want the facts and let the historians deal
with the interpretations aftewards. And there was a commentary
about amateurs and 'someone's hobby'. I dare say most of the sub
builders and wanna-be builders here on this forum are amateurs
and pursue this subject as a hobby or avocation. Dedicated amateurs
develop an expertise and knowledge. This applies to all fields of
endeavor.
There are limits to everything. ' Just know what they are and
lets keep a vigil and watch on those uninformed individuals and
groups that will mindlessly subvert our ability to exercise our
rights as 'reasonable people' to be creative and explore! And I know I
speak to reasonable and
creative people on this forum.
--Steve
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 06:12:09 -0800 (PST), No Periscope
<noperiscope@yahoo.com> wrote:
It was only a matter of time before this subject became a significant
problem and a deep concern of mine personally. I've gone through the
comments from each of you and made notes for each. I've deleted
portions but have kept the meat of your comments. I don't think I've
taken anything out of context and agree with each for the most part. To
keep it simple to understand I've made my comments in BOLD.... Dave
1st hand although the pillaging of the wreck and landing on it's deck
is unforgivable, it is still a grave site after all. People who
vandalize, and people who let people vandalize, don't have rights to
monuments. I personally don't feel that the titanic falls under this
category, but there are plenty who do.
I don't believe that a grave site is a significant issue. Any one there
is dead and couldn't care less. People have been giving tours by bus
around grave yards in Hollywood for ages and no one ever says a dam
thing about it. It's even publicly advertised. The grave yards even have
roads so it's easily accessible to the public. The Titanic is not a
monument and is just a big ship that got built, sank, and is now being
visited. Submarine tours to the Titanic or any other wreck including
the Edmond Fitzgerald is just a way of making money for those of us
still alive. And it's no different than taking a bus ride through any
Hollywood grave yard. The United States is becoming a place that is
operated by Lawyers and Tree Huggers and any time some one figures out a
way to make a living, some one else gets jealous and wants to put an end
to it. And it's almost always a Lawyer or an already wealthy Tree
Hugger.
Steven Mills wrote:
Carsten, also we are perceived as a liability and safety risk.
Nonetheless, our concern should be how restrictive will it become for us
with future legislation.
Steve
Again this is correct but there will always be those that go where no
one has gone before. There will always be those that ask "Why" and
those that ask "Why Not". There will always be those that make
something happen, those that watch things happen, and those that ask
what happened? The legal system that is so deeply entrenched in the US
is spreading to other countries and seems to be a disses out of
control. This has created it's own anti virus which forces or requires
some to travel outside the boundaries of the road most traveled.
Activities have always occurred at night and will continue as long as
necessary and loop holes will be found by those that look for them.
Ian, my fife cents - Titanic is made from mild steel and will be
gone in 50-100 years completly - with or without submersibles..
Better they visit them now and so often they can - make pictures,
videos and raise something for public museum porpose before she is a
debris
field of flat plates. I can not believe that a submersible touch the
deck with almost zero bouancy can badly damage a stable wreck - and a
unstable wreck will go in a couple of years anyway. In the baltic sea -
now virtual every wreck in german waters is protect by law for
archelogical reason - even the newer ones.. there is no lost
information on board of the Titanic make it worth to special-protect
this wreck so that only siencetific can visit here. Its great history
for shure - but a archaeological site ?
best regards Carsten
Your absolutely right Carsten, the reality of any submersible causing
damage to a ship that sank in 12,000 feet of water is a crazy joke. It
seems to me that the real damage happened years ago when they ran into
that giant ice cube floating around in the Atlantic. It was a total
loss, what are these people thinking, have they forgotten how it got
there. These people are stupid, when a car ends up in the junk yard, you
can scratch the paint and nobody sys any thing. Even though someone may
have died in the wreck.
Although must of people on the list won't get a drive a submarine
to see the Titanic, this is a high profile monument and when people
claim that it's damaged by submersibles, it gives all submersibles
a bad name...
Ian.
I wouldn't worry about it to much Ian, I feel that most adults have
gotten to a place that they give the media little to no credit and
realize that it's just a bad late show. And as for the written press,
any one that believes what they read in a news paper is never going to
make an important difference in any one else's life any way. All they
can do is slow us down.
Dave
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