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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Complaints about submersibles visiting the Titanic

Carl,

Indeed, I am aware of it. In fact, I've been pro-active
over the years voting for legislation to protect the
individual's rights and access to many things including
use of public lands. However, I have also seen the wrecklessness
of some individuals and groups, too, not to mention
commercial and government indiscretion. It's usually the irresponsible
few who give others [ like us ] a black mark.

I visit my family in the Midwest once a year. During my stay I go
to my old haunts; caves, fossil sites, quarry pits...etc. Each year,
I see more grafitti, trash, and dumping.  Many of these places are
closed-off, not to protect the sites, but because they have become a
hazard to public safety as a result of wreckless *individuals*.

I do not disagree with you or Carsten. But, there are limits.
As much as I champion individual rights, I also support scientific
research and exploration and that includes amateur and avocational
scientists. I'm not a proponent of the *politically correct crowd*.
But, as Carsten mentioned, these sites will erode and disappear
in 50 to 100 years...some in less time.  For some sites, let the
scientists conduct a proper investigation before letting the public
have access.  That's all I'm saying.

regards, --Steve
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:21:08 -0700, Coalbunny <coalbunny@wyoming.com> wrote:
Did you know that if we did exactly what most arceologists I know wanted us to do, we wouldn't have any use of public lands. Because of the multitude of potential dig sites, and the multitude of current sites that are constantly vandalized. In essence we should lose our rights in order to protect some goon's occupation or hobby.
It doesn't matter if it's underwater or on dry land- in America if it's older than 50 years, even mere garbage is considered historic- history is all around us and there is no way we can successfully protect all of it. There will always be morons that steal, vandalize, and what have you. And it's not right to place restrictions on the majority because of the acts of a very very few. 
Carl


Steven Mills wrote:


 Carsten,
 On the whole, I do not disagree with you. However,
in a broader sense, how will this affect us
civilian-builders-explorers in the future. There
is a public perception out there that we are 'nuts'
[ and perhaps we are  : ))  ] and also we are
perceived as a liability and safety risk. The
Reuters' article doesn't help the general sub-
builders community.
 On another note. I have come across  papers
[ which I haven't organized or posted yet ] on
archaeological forensics. With the new analysis
software and current computer technology, it's
amazing what can be reconstructed from a few
artifacts and a debris field from an ancient
wreck, which, in some instances, does not have
archival data, blueprints...etc., to lend
historical support.  At least, in this case, these
sites should not be disturbed..."hands-off"..*until*
the site has been thoroughly researched, documented
and reconstructed.
 There is also group of archaeologist [ albeit small for now ]
whose primary study and research are the time-degradation
effects of shipwrecks. Some of the conditions can be
recreated in a laboratory, but the random effects of
underwater meteorlogy and environmental changes cannot
be modelled or predicted with accuracy.
 Nonetheless, our concern should be how restrictive will
it become for us with future legislation.
 regards,
 --Steve
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:43:34 +0100, Carsten Standfuss <MerlinSub@t-online.de> wrote:
Ian, my fife cents - Titanic is made from mild steel and will be gone in 
50-100 years completly - with or without submersibles..
Better they visit them now and so often they can - make pictures, videos 
and raise something for public museum porpose before she is a debris
field of flat plates.

I can not believe that a submersible touch the deck with almost zero
bouancy can badly damage a stable wreck - and a unstable wreck will go
in a couple of years anyway.

In the baltic sea - now virtual every wreck in german waters is protect
by law for archelogical reason - even the newer ones..  :-0

I don't agree that wrecks of ships were we have all informations from -
including the logs, blueprints, building pictures, private and offical
reports should be special protect - there is no lost information on
board of the Titanic make it worth to special-protect this wreck so that 
only siencetific can visit here. Its great history for shure - but a
archelogical site ?
We can build them new if somebody pay the bill - up to the last rived.

best regards Carsten

Ian Roxborough schrieb:



Not good news for submarsibles/p-subs in general:
http://reuters.excite.com/article/20041115/2004-11-15T140317Z_01_N14187528_RTRIDST_0_ODD-SCIENCE-TITANIC-DC.html Although must of people on the list won't get a drive a submarine 
to see the Titanic, this is a high profile monument and when people
claim that it's damaged by submersibles, it gives all submersibles
a bad name...

Ian.
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