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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Euronauts Ballast and Trim System.



Thanks Carsten for your excellent and informative reply.

I have lately been wondering how to choose appropriate volumes for the hard and soft tanks. Your example gives me a useful baseline to work from.

If you have a surface displacement of 57,5 ts and a submerged displacement of 67,2 ts then your 'air displacement', or the volume that is above the surface, is 9,7 ts... (ignoring, of course, free-flooding areas, but including anything of water-displacing volume which is temporarily above the surface.) This explains why submarines have small 'sails' and low freeboard.

Please correct me if I am wrong!

When you put the Euronaut in the water, how much freeboard do you expect to have? How much freeboard you think is necessary to be safe in the open sea? What sea conditions do you expect to be able to operate on the surface in? If it gets worse than that, you can just dive, of course...

Do most submarines reserve 15% of their volume for hard and soft tanks? I guess that the larger the submarine is, the smaller the percentage can be to achieve the same freeboard. Very small psubs must have proportionately larger MBT.

On the other hand, I would expect the size of the VBT in proportion to the rest of the boat to remain the same or actually get larger as the size of the vessel gets bigger because there is more mass to trim. I imagine a boat that will have a greater dynamic range of cargo (more people and equipment one day, less the next) will also have to have correspondingly larger VBT.


I think it is quite clever how you can use the Diver Lock Out chamber to blow the ballast tanks. That shows some good integration, and as an electrical engineer friend of mine often says... 'joined-up-thinking!'

Do you have sensors in the ballast tanks to indicate how much water you have in the tanks?

In one of the photos you have placed on the Moki picture exchange, I saw what looked like a computer screen with a boat diagram and tank capacities. Is this system for diagnostics and status only, or can the computer control some functions?

(As a computer guy, I can really appreciate a good old-fashioned manual system, where a computer bug is less likely to crash your boat.)

I am impressed with the amount of thought you have put into making the Euronaut a safe vessel to travel in.

I don't mean to annoy or distract you with too many questions... I think we'd all prefer you spent your time getting the boat completed and launched!

Thanks,
Chuck

On Jun 7, 2004, at 2:37 PM, Carsten Standfuss wrote:

Hi Charles -

Bigger tanks partlly filled with water, soft or hard, ambient or not,
pressure compansate ambient or not.. will not work on a submarine..

The reason is what we call the "free surface". In simple words:
If the boat move under an angle for example to the bow - the water
in the tanks follow this angle the and the longitudinal trim and
stability get very quick out of control. Even a big Car-ferry can quick
capzied if the fire-sprinkler system flooded the car deck with some inch
of water.(but in this case to the side).

For this reason submarine have two types of tanks :
Big Softanks for the freeboard on the surface - allways
completly filled underwater !
Small hard tanks partlly filled for the zero bouancy.
If the hard tanks located near bow and stern we called them trim tanks.

Euronaut has a surface displacemnet of 57,5 ts.
One Soft tank in the bow and one in the stern.
Each soft tank has = 4,5 ts = 9 ts together.
One hard tank in the bow and one in the stern.
Each hard tank has 0,7 ts = 1,4 ts

The boat dives with the soft tank completly filled and the hardtanks
to 50% = So dive displacement  in this theoretical disscussion is
57,5 + 9 + 0,7 = 67,2 ts.

Note : The hard tanks in Euronaut are inside the soft tanks.

Diving : Open the vales on top of the soft tanks.
This tanks are open at the bottom - the air escapes -water floods the
tank completly. The hard tanks are still emtpty - than I open the bottom
vale of the hard tank - water gets in a litle - but than stops because
of the sliglty compressed airbubble inside this tanks. Than open the
top-vale of this tanks until the water level is in a amount I want -
near 50% depents on the boats load and water density - close than top-
and bottom vales of this tanks.

Surfacing : Close the top-vales of the soft tanks - open the top vale of
the hardtank and let compressed air into this tanks until the
airpressure inside is higher than the outside waterpressure. Than open
the bottom valve of the hardtanks and the water gets out - until all
water is out - than the air gets out of this bottom valve - and will be
catch by the softtank (..the hard tank is inside this tank..) The boat
surface and it depents of the deep it was and the pressure and amount of
air I blow to the hard tank if the soft tanks are completly empty or
not. If not I blow more air to the hardtank with open bottom vale until
the boat is completly in surface trim. Than I close the top- and the
bottom  vale of the hard tank. Go on deck with two metal blindflanges
with treads and close the softtank-topvales with this additional saftey
feature tight. It doesnt matter if now somebody plays with the controls
- the Euronaut is now  a surface boat until somebody remove this plate.
Another function of this blindflanges is that we can test the functon of the outside and remote controlled softtank-topvales without to flood the
tank.

The reason for the size of the softtank is the amount of freeboard and
seaworthness I want. The reason for the sizes of the hard tanks is given
by the differnet density of the saltwater of the north sea (1,025) and
the baltic sea (1,0= freshwater) and the need to compensate the diffence
in the load of the boat mostly if the diesel tanks are up to 90% filled
or down to 10% empty.

The diesel tanks are inside the pressure hull - one forward and one aft
- so I can trim the longitudinal trim with this tanks also.

The freshwater (drinkwater) tank for the toilet, pantry and shower has
the same size than the wastewater tank - and is locate close together.
If the freshwatertank is filled - the wastewater tank is empty - and
opposite.

I have two ways to blow the tanks with compessed air - one is inside the
pressure hull - and the other one is outside. I have two compressors -
and two highpressure pipes systems. In emergency I can also blow the
tanks with the helium normaly use for the diver chamber.

The air storage capacity is 30 units x each 50 Liters x 220 bars =
330000 liters so I can blow the soft and hardtanks = 9000 + 1400= 10400
liters ->  330000/10400 = 32 times ! The is no real reason to blow the
tanks so many times but most of the storage bottles are used to blow the
diver lockout lock in chamber. To blow the soft and hardtanks I need
about one bottle each dive.

But the diver chamber has 7000 liters volume in a deep of 150 meter
this requires : 7000 x 15 bar = 105000 liters of gas before the chamber
is equal to the seapressure and the bottom hatch can be open. I double
the storage capacity for saftey reasons.

There is another pipe so I can blow with the gas inside the diverchamber
also direct the soft- and hardtanks. To do this the boat has to to
surfac dynamicly a little so that the pressure in the diverchamber is
higher than the seapressure - then the decompression vale of the chamber
will be wired to the softtanks - and the gas can be use for twice
functions.

There are two high pressure seawater pumps in the boat - but this are
emergency pumps to drain the bilge.
They are not connected to the Ballast- and trim system.

I have 3 additional drop weights - each 1 ts heavy which can be release
mechanical by turn a key 60 degrees. The reason is that this is the
fastest way to create lift in case of a leak.

There are no seawater pipes or any outside pressure pipes inside the
sub. In fact that all dive valves are remote controlled there are no
outside pressure pipes anywere in the boat ! Only small high pressure
air pipes. If this pipes breaks inside and outside the sub (!) than only
a very little amount of water can get inside the sub.

Hope this help..  a scetch of the tanksystem is ate WWW.Euronaut.org at
the page "Technische Daten"

regards Carsten

Charles Perkins schrieb:

Carsten,

Do you mind telling us a little about the ballast system on the
Euronaut?

I am wondering:

How big are your VBT (Variable Buoyancy Tanks) compared to the overall
volume of the Euronaut (minus the Main Ballast Tanks, which I assume
you will flood when you dive?)

How big are the MBT compared to the rest of the boat?

How do you intend to "blow" the MBT when you surface... will you use
high pressure air, pumps, or both?

How much air for ballast purposes do you have stored in the cylinders
in (or on) the boat? How many cylinders (of what size) does that take?

I ask about the Euronaut because that is the size of submarine that
particularly interests me.  I do my day-dreaming about submarines
ranging from the size of Peter Madsen's Kraka (what a cool looking
boat!) to something the size of your vessel... I like the idea of being
able to cruise for a couple of days surfaced or submerged before
returning to port.

I would like to know more about Peter's new UC 3 project... It is too
bad I can't read Danish.

Thanks all you Psubbers for putting together an excellent community.
I've been lurking for a while now. (Isn't that what submariners are
best at?)

With enthusiasm,

Chuck

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