Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scuttle Valve: Bad Idea

["Dan H." <jmachine@adelphia.net>]

Adam,
I agree with almost everything you say.  You make a good point with your
hypothetical scenarios.  I also agree that I could find a fitting to unscrew
and let water in the sub somewhere.

Where I disagree with you and feel a, flood valve is a good idea is, all my
through hull fittings are 1/2 inch ID pipe except my flood valve.  It's a
two inch pipe so I can flood fast and reduce my effective bottom time in
case it ever had to be used.  As an additional safety.  I have a well
greased two inch pipe plug in it from the inside that has to be removed
first to actually flood anything.

It's like a dusty life preserver on an ocean liner.
As I said, it's a LAST resort.

Dan H.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Lawrence" <adteleka@in-tch.com>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scuttle Valve: Bad Idea


> Carsten, you can come up with a thousand scenarios that would justify
> flooding your sub. I agree with you and your reasons for flooding your sub
> in an emergency, like I said in my post on 3/9.
>
> C and everyone,
> There is a difference between military subs and personal subs, I would
> classify Carsten's closer to a military sub (because of its size) and I
> would classify p-subs closer to a typical 1-3 person research type sub.
>
> For a personal sub what would have to happen for it to flood half full of
> water? Lets say you break a port, Rich Slater had that happen and he just
> opened the hatch and got out, he was very very lucky, the other guy wasn't
> so lucky. Lets say you develop a slow leak, you would surface immediately.
> Lets say you develop a fast leak, ok, that leak is just like a scuttle
valve
> and you either did something really stupid or you really made a
> miscalculation in the design; either way you are committed to getting wet
as
> your sub goes to who knows what depth, hope you make it out!
> Lets say your sub is stuck in mud at whatever depth. With a little psub
you
> can blow your ballast tanks (hopefully you made them big enough), drop the
> lead and use your motor and your body weight to wiggle your little sub
> loose.
>
> In military subs they either get fired at and that sends the sub to the
> bottom or they do something stupid, or its a bad design. If the bottom is
in
> your diving range you might have time to get out. What if the bottom is at
> 20,000 ft, implosion? Hopefully none of us will be getting fired on!
>
> Lets say we do something stupid and plow our sub into an underwater cave
or
> into a lost fishing net. If we are way out in the ocean I doubt we will be
> by ourselves or without a boat that has some cable, a diver and
> communications. Lets say we are in the town fishing hole, no big boat but
> you can probably get your dive friend to help you. Lets say no big boat,
and
> beyond scuba and your hatch is clear of any obsticles. Well again you
either
> did something really stupid with the sub or the design. But you are still
> stuck and it is too late to think about sub2, you  have to get out, hmmm.
Ok
> you dump all the weights, blow the tanks, dump the tail section, dump the
> dive plane, wiggle yourself silly and still your stuck, hmmm. Ok I agree,
a
> psub should have a scuttle valve, but make sure to label it correctly like
> "Idiot Valve" or something like that.
>
> You could still find something to unscrew in the sub to start a leak, this
> would take thought and time but it would make you try a lot of other
things
> before flooding the sub.
>
> This is my thinking, and some of my reasoning for not needing a valve. Put
a
> valve in, doesn't matter one way or the other. I won't be putting one in
> though.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carsten Standfuss" <MerlinSub@t-online.de>
> To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scuttle Valve: Bad Idea
>
>
> > adteleka@in-tch.com schrieb:
> > >
> > > Why are you guys so hell bent on getting out of your sub. Like you
said
> > > Dan, if you have a diver that can come down to assist you why do you
> > > automatically think he has to assist you out of the sub? The best
thing
> you
> > > could ask for is an extra set of hands on the outside to untangle/cut
> > > whatever. Unless you friction welded your sub to some underwater
> structure,
> > > you pbobably have some serious design problems to deal with, which
does
> not
> > > include adding a suicide valve. Look at Kittredge's book where he
talkes
> > > about that guy who couldn't blow his tanks. Or when Capt. K
> misscalculated
> > > displacement. (Where is Vance Bradley he should chime in on this one)
> The
> > > sub I am most familliar with, in opperation today, has dived all over
> the
> > > world over the last 20 years and it does not have a scuttle valve. Did
> the
> > > designer forget to put one in, of course not, he knows its a bad idea.
> This
> > > is a classic Psubs example (Jon and Ray have a great site) of where
the
> > > thinking stops too short.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Adam
> >
> > Adam - what should a diver do with 60 ts sub - heavy dammged
> > - maybe half flooded on the bottom ? And can he find the sub in time ?
> > I know some really old german navy sailors  - leaving
> > there sub on the bottom of the Baltic or North Sea in 1944/45
> >  and some of them are still alive.. What is the problem with a flooded
> > valve ?
> > It is easy to build, easy to secure, cheap - and just a additional
> > feature..
> > Same with the drop weight - most military boats have no drop weight and
> > survive over 20
> > years without any problem. But for civil sub it is in the rules..
> >
> > Imagine you a trap in a sub - just in 60 feet of water - far out of
> > course from
> > you dive plan.. The dead guys in the Largo M. in the mud trap "Tigerhai"
> > - no way out.
> > The divers search for the sub over a half year..
> >
> > regards Carsten
>
>