Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Decisions decisions decisions....

[Ian Roxborough <irox@ix.netcom.com>]

Insteresting, I when through a similar design process, placing the
engine (diesel) in a pod seperate from the human occupied space,
sound reduction and keeping the smelly diesel out of the human
occupied space where as much driving factors as fire/safety.  However,
there is also problem of what if the engine needs a minor adjustment
to get you home.  Then I moved it into the human occupied pressure
hull, seperating it from the humans with a pressure resistant access
hatch/bulkhead.  My most recent design has replaced the pressure
resistant hatch, with an air tight/sound proofed/fire proof seperator.
This is a lot easier to deal with (i.e. open and close) and design
around than the pressure tight hatch.

If I was going to go with a diesel electric solution (very appealing
to me these days), then I would convert the diesel to run on veggie
oil (or bio-diesel as a second choice).  This cuts down the risk of
fire and diesel oil smell even farther.

With a gasoline engine in a seperate pod, you've still got the problem
where you are carrying a fuel that can explode under (relatively low)
pressure.  While this might be fine when everything is going right,
should something go wrong (collision, electrical problems, an O-ring
hadn't seat properly, etc.), then risk of a 'minor' problem escalate
into a more serious (explosion and fire) problem is a lot higher if
you've got a gasoline engine on your vessel.

Diesel also combusts under pressure (but a much much higher pressure),
but I can't seem to find any nice comparisons between the psi required
to combust diesel vs gasoline.

There is one other thing that really put my off using gasoline engines
in sub - many people have already died in submarines due to gasoline
engines.

  Ian.

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:21:50 -0800 (PST)
Warren Greenway <opensourcesub@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Well, that would be why I would only do it if I could
> place the engine outside the pressure hull (in a pod).
> I would NEVER consider having it in the same space as 
> myself. I know a diesel is a better choice up front,
> but I wouldn't want that in the same compartment with
> me either, so I would still face the same problem.
> It's
> just a thought, because I can rebuild and maintain a
> 318 easily. I just want to review the pertinent 
> technology early on, before I need to design anything
> in.
> 
> Warren.
>  
> --- Ian Roxborough <irox@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Warren,
> > 
> > It really scares me when I hear people talking about
> > gasoline engines
> > in submarines.  The reason of course, being that
> > gasoline gives off
> > lots of explosive heavier than vapours.  The
> > gasoline vapours sink in
> > air and gather in pockets waiting for spark (or even
> > just enough pressure).
> > 
> > I would turn down a ride in pretty much every
> > submarine I've seen or
> > heard of with a gasoline engine.  How can you
> > guarantee that there
> > will not be a build up of gasoline fumes in some
> > area of your sub,
> > that may come under pressure/get banged/metal
> > rubs/sparks fly.  Now,
> > things could be worse, some O2 might get mixed into
> > the gas fumes....
> > 
> > Of course this is just me, I'd be interested to hear
> > if others share
> > this, or if I'm totally wrong (still wouldn't ride
> > in a sub with a
> > gasoline engine, even if I am wrong).
> > 
> >  Ian.
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:34:08 -0800 (PST)
> > Warren Greenway <opensourcesub@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Speaking of all this, where could I find info on
> > making a V8 seaworthy? I have wondered
> > > about a completely external gasoline, say 318.
> > Why, well, they are super reliable and 
> > > cheaper then dirt. Is it worth the hassle for
> > surface cruising and charging?
> > >  
> > > Warren.
> > > 
> > > Carsten Standfuss <MerlinSub@t-online.de> wrote:
> > > Mark - the best on such a sub replica is that from
> > a standpoint of 2004
> > > they are all low tec - and can be easly build as
> > homework for somebody
> > > with mechanical expierence. And perhaps because of
> > low consumption of
> > > electronic instruments and other expensive
> > conponents - cheap. 
> > > A Biber with a second hand car engine for example
> > can be a under 10.000
> > > Dollar Projekt. A Seehund is clear more because of
> > the amount of
> > > batteries required - and a turtle ist mostly some
> > brass, a tree and a
> > > lot of work.. 
> > > 
> > > regards Carsten
> > > 
> > > Mark Steed schrieb:
> > > > 
> > > > Doug makes a great point-it is cetrtainly
> > possible and a helluva good idea. I work for a
> > university museum and am directly involved in all
> > aspects of what is offered here. I have also been
> > and am currently involved in very similar projects.
> > With that said, and as much as I would like to see
> > such a "submarine project", it would not fly here.
> > At least not at the University where I work. If I
> > were to present such a project to my director and
> > board for consideration, I can only imagine the
> > looks. I am in land locked Arkansas for starters. I
> > really believe it would take a "nautical" ,marine or
> > maritime institution to see such a plan through.
> > Surely there is someone out on the east, west or
> > Gulf coast familiar with what could be put together.
> > It is worth pursuit. Best regards, Mark
> > > > 
> > > > Mark E. Steed
> > > > Arkansas State University Museum
> > > > 110 Cooley Drive,PO Box#490
> > > > State University, AR 72467-0490
> > > > USA
> > > > Tel#(870)972-2074 Fax#(870)972-2793
> > > > Email: plutomark@mail.astate.edu
> > > > 
> > > > ---------- Original Message
> > ----------------------------------
> > > > From: DJACKSON99@aol.com
> > > > Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > > > Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:57:49 -0500
> > > > 
> > > > >If you go this route you should contact a grant
> > writer and see what foundations are out there that
> > would subsidize the cost. You can start with
> > University contacts in the History department and
> > have them enlist the Universities grant writers for
> > assistance. You might be able to partner with the
> > university and let them manage the over-site. Some
> > grad student/s can do your research as part of their
> > thesis, and you get to build and operate the sub.
> > Maybe tour and do exhibitions. --Doug J
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ---------------------------------
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