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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballast Question
Now that is something I never would have thought of... and I should have
as I have read the book Under Pressure, by A.J. Hill. This tells the
story of the S-Five, which ended up with its nose on the bottom and the
stern sticking out of the water. This was caused by loss of trim...
which was in tern partially caused by failing to close the main
induction valve... among other things. By the time Captain Cooke
realized what was happening... the water in the sub was all flowing
forward... it was too late to stop it and after the water was all in the
forward compartment there was no way to get the sub back in trim. Of
course the batteries spilled and the reaction with the sea water
released chlorine. Amazingly, all hands were rescued... though the
S-Five still lies on the bottom... with a hole in her stern cut by men
with hand tools.
On Mon, 2002-12-30 at 17:22, Carsten Standfuss wrote:
> Bigger tanks partlly filled with water, soft or hard, ambient or not,
> pressure compansate ambient or not.. will not work on a submarine..
>
> The reason is what we call the "free surface". In simple words:
> If the boat move under an angle for example to the bow - the water
> in the tanks follow this angle the and the longitudinal trim and
> stability get very quick out of control. Even a big Car-ferry can quick
> capzied if the fire-sprinkler system flooded the car deck with some inch
> of water.(but in this case to the side).
>
> For this reason submarine have two types of tanks :
> Big Softanks for the freeboard on the surface - allways
> completly filled underwater !
> Small hard tanks partlly filled for the zero bouancy.
> If the hard tanks located near bow and stern we called them trim tanks.
>
> The only sub I know with one just one single tank is the "Tadpole" (its
> on the psubs picture gallery) with a vertical strong pipe in the center
> of Graphity and Bouancy and also used as pillars between the both
> endcaps of the shell. This tank is very high but has less diameter - so
> the "free surface" is small under normal conditions up to 60-70 degree.
>
> Best wishes for all friends 2003
>
> Carsten WWW.Euronaut.ORG Carsten@Euronaut.org
>
>
> Alec Smyth schrieb:
> >
> > Pierre,
> >
> > I'm building a sub with NO tankage so I'm no expert. However, my understanding in the simplest terms is that you would normally have the following two, independent, ballast systems:
> >
> > 1) Main ballast
> > To be used basically in all-or-nothing mode. You flood these (completely) to submerge, and blow them (completely) to surface. You would not normally try and submerge with ballast partially blown as you describe. Soft tanks make sense for main ballast, as they are large.
> >
> > 2) Variable ballast
> > This is for fine trimming the overall buoyancy of the boat. Generally a hard tank, to prevent the kind of feedback loop you mention -- getting heavier the deeper you go. It would normally be placed to be vertically aligned with the submerged center of buoyancy. Some subs use a soft variable ballast tank inside the hull, but with high pressure tubing and pumps to dump water overboard. Whether you go with hard or soft, as with all hull penetrations do put shutoff valves immediately inside the hull.
> >
> > That said, some small subs do combine both systems in one. The Deep Workers I believe are a nice example of that, with a single, soft (plastic), open-bottom tank.
> >
> > In addition, there are two more ballast systems often mentioned, although frequently dispensed with in psubs:
> >
> > 3) Trim tanks
> > For trimming fore-and aft or side to side. You might keep the volume of water constant, but pump some from bow to stern or vice versa, to get the boat horizontal. There are all sorts of options, such as moveable weights or moveable batteries.
> >
> > 4) Dive tanks
> > Small tanks that are calculated to put the boat in approximate trim when fully flooded. This is a simple way to reach a trimmed condition fast, and I think is mostly of interest to military subs.
> >
> > I could not agree more with Herve about the desirability of a scuba course for anyone building a sub, and especially if its an ambient sub. In an ambient sub you will be scuba diving, although your scuba apparatus looks just like a submarine -- there's absolutely no difference from a physiological perspective. So you better know about decompression, safe rates of ascent, nitrogen narcosis, etc. as well as basic high school physics.
> >
> > rgds,
> >
> > Alec
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pierre Poulin [mailto:pipo305@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Mon 12/30/2002 9:30 AM
> > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > Cc:
> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ballast Question
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi there every body! It's the newbi again.
> >
> > I'm working on an a dry ambient sub. The hull is 60% finish.
> >
> > I tought that the ballast system was pretty simple but then I figured that
> > if I have a main ballast system witch is opened at the bottom and I ajust
> > the buyancy at 33 feet. Then, I go at 66 feet using electric motors. The
> > buyancy will need to be ajusted again since the air in the ballast will be 2
> > times smaller. Right? So the deeper I go, the faster I sink?
> >
> > Would it be better if the ballast was able to support the pressure like an 1
> > atm design and you close the bottom of the ballast witch is normaly open? So
> > the volume of air will remain the same? I do realize that when I will try to
> > put more air in the ballast, I will have to play with 2 valves at the same
> > time to conpensate.
> >
> > Is that a variable ballast system? Is there a difference between those two
> > systems (main and variable)?
> >
> > I'm a bit confused with that! I'm looking for something as simple as
> > possible.
> >
> > I tought that some of you guys who are more experienced surely have the
> > answer to my problem!
> >
> > Thanks for your help!
> >
> > Pierre Poulin
> > From cold Québec, Canada.
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > MSN Messenger : discutez en direct avec vos amis !
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> >
> >
> >
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Dale A. Raby
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