Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Close cycle gasoline engines

[Ian Roxborough <irox@ix.netcom.com>]

Hi,

I've seen this come up a few times, there is even a
white paper which talks about it on the psubs web site:

http://www.psubs.org/designguide/waip.html

Also searching the mailing list archives for
"closed cycle" or "AIP" would probably point you to
some previous discussions of this topic.

I'm not speaking for everybody, but the general
consensus seemed to be leaning towards the "it's
too dangerous".  I got the feeling that this was
mainly because with too much oxygen anything can get
*REALLY* explosive.  Not too forget, that fire is a
real bad enemy to have on board a submarine (more
so if it is under the water at the time).

Gasoline has it's own hazards for marine vessels
and submarines.  Mainly it's vapourises easily
and the vapour is heavier than air, so it will pool
in the bottom of your submarine and wait for a spark
or flame to ignite it.

Saying that, closed cycle diesel are being used by
universities on unmanned autonimous submarines.  Also
a company called Kockums is making a closed cycle
stirling engine for military submarine.
http://www.kockums.se/Submarines/aipstirling.html

Maybe there is some future in AIP for personal subs,
if somebody discovers a safe chemical heat source that
doesn't have a danger of exploding, which could be
hooked up to a stirling engine.

Ian.



On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 15:21:38 EDT
ToolRoomTrustee@aol.com wrote:

> Have any of you looked at the work done in Germany in 30s to
> run gasoline and diesel engines underwater in what is called a
> closed cycle?  Rossler's THE U-boat was published in English
> by US Naval Institute Press in early 80s.  FWIW Aberdeen, WA
> branch of Timberline Regional Library had a copy last time I looked
> and ought to be available on InterLibrary Loan.
> Anyway on page 144 in middle column (of 3) near bottom is mentioned
> some experiments done in Germany starting in late 20s into early 30s.
> The head of the project, a Dr. Kauffman was forced out of Germany
> by the NAZIs  The basic concept was that the exhaust gasses would
> be recycled and some additional oxygen was added, kinda like
> an engine rebreather.  Apparently later research developed engines,
> mufflers and mountings that kept noise level down.  This might be
> a suitable drive for a personal sub.  Perhaps with a snorkel capability
> for runs on the surface (to keep intake above waves) and just below
> surface.  I could see such an arrangement with engine surrounded by
> CO2 so a fire would be unlikely.  Probably be good to have the engine
> and fuel compartment completely separate from crew compartment.
> A lot of the crew on German miniature subs died from CO poisoning.
> 
> Another aspect to consider is fuel.  I recall reading that some Zeppelins
> didn't use gasoline as a fuel but some kind of synthetic gas that was stored
> in the balloons.  Possibley something like that might work.  Or maybe
> MAPP gas.
> 
> Larry Murray
> 


-- 
The moon ate the sun on Monday and it was an awsome sight to see.