Re: Fw: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUBSAFE

["John T. McCracken" <firstratefab@citlink.net>]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Keefer" <Ray.Keefer@Sun.COM>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUBSAFE


> Hi Pat,
>
> > From: "Captain Nemo" <vulcania@hawaii.rr.com>
> > To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > Subject: Re: Fw: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUBSAFE
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:20:36 -1000
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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> >
> > Doc and Carsten,
> >
> > I like your way of looking at it, Doc.  Makes sense.  I've got to admit,
> > though; and without meaning to offend anybody; I have some concerns over
> > who'd edit and compile such a reference manual. I think that should be
done
> > by people who have real experience in homebuilt subs, and the PSUBS
> > webmeisters don't.
>
> However it seems only the webmeisters are even willing to try.
> So the choice is the webmeisters try or it won't get done.
>
> >
> > On another point: the last thing I want to see is any group like this
one
> > (again, comprised mainly of non-subbers) establishing the idea that
> > homebuilt submarines should comply with ABS, PVHO, et al.  Whereas I
> > recognize  the sensibility of emulating basic proven designs, this
> > inclination towards "commercial standards" could get out of hand if a
> > regulatory agency sees it as the general opinion of the homebuilt
submarine
> > community, and decides to impose them on everyone.  That would bring an
end
> > to most all experimental homebuilt submersibles presently being
developed in
> > the private sector.  For example, most of us can't afford the cost of
X-ray
> > inspections: this would put us out of business, no matter how long we've
> > been welding, or how clean our beads are.
>
> Yep. So maybe we come up with some other method that is not as expensive.
> Magnetic flux? Dies? Unmanned testing? Find alternatives to expensive
> methods.

X-ray is not all that expensive, in the western U.S. you could expect to pay
about $300. to shoot both of the end caps on 36" pipe. The branch weld can't
be shot if it's a 36" on 36", but it can be if it's a 36" in 36". Thats's
assuming you take the vessel to the lab, otherwise, add travel time both
ways @ their rate, approx. $80 - $90
 per hour. UT (ultrasonic) isn't used until the wall thickness is over 5/16"
and even then is rarely used on pipe. You would have to have a special
procedure written and have custom calibration blocks made, making it much
cheaper to X- ray. Dye testing would not show defects unless they were
cracks on the surface. Mag particle might be helpful but I don't have any
idea how the cost compares with X-ray. All of this is from my experience as
owner of a weling/fabrication buisness so if anyone out there works in
materials testing they will know more about it than me. Everything we do
gets tested either by X-ray or a pressure test or very rarely UT.
JTMcC.
>
> Mostly the reference would point someone to a standard if say then
> didn't know anything about view ports, go here. Or welding standards,
> go there.
>
> >
> > There have always been separate camps represented on this website:
> > commercial subbers; experienced homebuilt subbers; and aspiring
homebuilt
> > subbers.  The needs  of each group are unique unto themselves.  Any
manual
> > seeking to support the homebuilt submarine enthusiast needs to recognize
our
> > differences as well as our common bonds.
>
> I know that. I can't teach the Gods of the sea anything they don't already
> know. The idea was to help out the new guys. They come on every couple of
> months and ask basic questions. Sure after hours of digging through the
> archives and days reading books they will have the basics but, here is
> tge big question:
>
> Is there a better way?
>
> > I would resist anything that might
> > eventually result in the legislative imposition of commercial standards
on
> > homebuilt submarines; and it seems to me that what some of you guys are
> > suggesting could be heading in that direction.
>
> That is the scenerio some fear. I am not sure you comprehend the points
though.
> I will reinterate three possible scenerios:
>
> 1. We do nothing, then when the legistration comes down it will be
>    a knee jerk reaction that is so badly written that we are shut down.
> 2. We set our own standards and say hey, you want to legislate us,
>    this has been working for some time, use this.
> 3. Or no legistration will ever come down and this whole exercise is
meaniless,
>    even a liability. Seems Pat this is your point of view.
>
> So which is right. History of our Government has proven that that every
> loop-hole is a right that hasn't been taken away yet. Homebuilt
> submarines will be effected some day.
>
> >
> > Also, I am vigorously opposed to the concept that any working homebuilt
sub
> > not meeting someone else's personal criteria should be "banished to the
> > cornfield".  That kind of censorship is just too dictatorial for me.
>
> Where did you get this idea? I can't stop anyone from building what they
want.
> If I say these are resonible set of guidelines and they say hell I'll
build
> what I want. There is nothing I can do to stop then. If they screw up
> we can tell their relatives they chose to ignore our advice.
>
> > All
> > existing sub projects should be available to public display; good or
bad,
> > there's something to be learned from all of them.
>
> Absolutely. PSUBS is the best place on the web that I have seen for
> that "public display". Critique of each design would be even better.
>
> >
> > Additionally, this movement to provide a generic model so the "newbie"
can
> > achieve a safe submarine for his own enjoyment is, again, (IMOHO) an
attempt
> > at reinventing the wheel. Instead of creating your own knock-off model
based
> > on Captain George's designs, why don't you just cut to the chase and
tell
> > them to buy a set of Kitteredge plans, then?  You'd save yourself a lot
of
> > time and trouble; and wouldn't be ripping the Captain off, either.
>
> Yep. I have advised many people over the years to build a Kittredge sub if
> they want a 1ATM sub. I also have advised people to buy a SportSub if they
> want an ambient sub.
>
> Why didn't you build a Kittredge sub? Why do you expect someone else to
> build a Kittredge sub? There are people out they who WANT to design and
> build their own. The idea was to give them a guide as a reasonible
> starting point.
>
> >
> > And to answer in public a question that was posed to me offline, but
which I
> > feel should be addressed here: I am a subber, not a PSUB'er.  To me,
PSUBS
> > is like a "brand name" associated with this website.  I and other people
I
> > know were "subbers" long before this website came to be.  As an analogy:
> > those I've known who design and build their own personal motorcycles are
not
> > "PBIKers", we are just plain "bikers".  Accordingly, when I use the term
> > "subber", I speak of a longstanding global brotherhood of submarine
> > enthusiasts not limited to an affiliation with this particular website
> > alone.    Hope that clears up any unexpressed questions about my use of
that
> > term.
>
> True. PSUBS was coined for this web site. Home built submarines have been
> around long before I was born. Still, is there another site out there
exists
> as the melting pot for subbers to mingle and kabitz? Did you know about
> Herve before PSUBS? Carsten?
>
> There are over 160 individuals on the alias. Whether the consider
themselves
> PSUBers or subbers, I don't care. As long as they are safe and live long
> lives.
>
> >
> > Pat
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Doc" <doc@bionicdolphin.com>
> > To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 6:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUBSAFE
> >
> >
> > > Hi Carsten,
> > >
> > >  I think you've got a point. Perhaps instead of a "How to" book it
should
> > be a "Where to" reference manual.
> > > I know that when designing the Bionic Dolphin, I searched high and low
for
> > reference material.
> > > A one stop beginner's source book, like this group is becoming, could
> > provide all the information
> > > to safely design, build and operate a Psub and eliminate any personal
> > liability from the contributors.
> > >  All the information is out there, it just needs to be compiled into
one
> > starting place.
> > >
> > > Doc
> > >
> > >
> > > Carsten Standfuss wrote:
> > >
> > > > > first of all and above, all subers should be certified divers, not
> > only it is a good start for those who wish to travel under the water but
> > also with all the basics,
> > > > > many questions on this forum would not have been even asked by
> > certified divers.
> > > > > Herve
> > > >
> > > > Hi - my two cents.
> > > >
> > > > Herve is right - for the reason thats the most Psubs are in a
divedepths
> > > > were a dive exit can be survived -
> > > > Psubers should have Scuba dive expirence. Also a dive course give
you
> > > > the expierence about human bodys
> > > > under pressure..., under bouancy, under water..
> > > >
> > > > No need to find new rules - ABS, PVHO, GL, LRs etc based mostly on
> > > > expirence.
> > > > Just purchase the books and decide foryourself what is useful for a
> > > > small sub and what not.
> > > >
> > > > But a basic example calculation with drawings - made from somebody
how
> > > > has allready build
> > > > at least one usefull selfdesigned subs will help much more.
> > > >
> > > > Also a short list of absolut nessesary requirements can be displayed
> > > > here on psubs - like :
> > > >
> > > > A Psub should have :
> > > >
> > > > - A drop weight
> > > > - A hatch which can be easy open from both sides
> > > > - A scuba gear for each person
> > > > - A lifesupport system according to classification rules
> > > > - A security Diver(s) during the first test dive.
> > > > - A calculation of weight, bouancy and trim
> > > > - A .. maybe some other points - but not to much.
> > > >
> > > > Boats which not fullfill (most) of this basic rules or equal
solutions
> > > > should not to be displayed on the Psubs Picture Gallery.. or even on
a
> > > > convention..
> > > >
> > > > - A Sub with propane in her softanks should be - blown..
> > > >
> > > > Carsten
> >
> >
>
> Regards,
> Ray
>
>
>