Re: Fw: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUBSAFE

[Ray Keefer <Ray.Keefer@Sun.COM>]

Hi Pat,

> From: "Captain Nemo" <vulcania@hawaii.rr.com>
> To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: Fw: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUBSAFE
> Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:20:36 -1000
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> 
> Doc and Carsten,
> 
> I like your way of looking at it, Doc.  Makes sense.  I've got to admit,
> though; and without meaning to offend anybody; I have some concerns over
> who'd edit and compile such a reference manual. I think that should be done
> by people who have real experience in homebuilt subs, and the PSUBS
> webmeisters don't.

However it seems only the webmeisters are even willing to try.
So the choice is the webmeisters try or it won't get done.

> 
> On another point: the last thing I want to see is any group like this one
> (again, comprised mainly of non-subbers) establishing the idea that
> homebuilt submarines should comply with ABS, PVHO, et al.  Whereas I
> recognize  the sensibility of emulating basic proven designs, this
> inclination towards "commercial standards" could get out of hand if a
> regulatory agency sees it as the general opinion of the homebuilt submarine
> community, and decides to impose them on everyone.  That would bring an end
> to most all experimental homebuilt submersibles presently being developed in
> the private sector.  For example, most of us can't afford the cost of X-ray
> inspections: this would put us out of business, no matter how long we've
> been welding, or how clean our beads are.

Yep. So maybe we come up with some other method that is not as expensive.
Magnetic flux? Dies? Unmanned testing? Find alternatives to expensive
methods.

Mostly the reference would point someone to a standard if say then
didn't know anything about view ports, go here. Or welding standards,
go there.

> 
> There have always been separate camps represented on this website:
> commercial subbers; experienced homebuilt subbers; and aspiring homebuilt
> subbers.  The needs  of each group are unique unto themselves.  Any manual
> seeking to support the homebuilt submarine enthusiast needs to recognize our
> differences as well as our common bonds.  

I know that. I can't teach the Gods of the sea anything they don't already
know. The idea was to help out the new guys. They come on every couple of
months and ask basic questions. Sure after hours of digging through the
archives and days reading books they will have the basics but, here is
tge big question:

Is there a better way?

> I would resist anything that might
> eventually result in the legislative imposition of commercial standards on
> homebuilt submarines; and it seems to me that what some of you guys are
> suggesting could be heading in that direction.

That is the scenerio some fear. I am not sure you comprehend the points though.
I will reinterate three possible scenerios:

1. We do nothing, then when the legistration comes down it will be 
   a knee jerk reaction that is so badly written that we are shut down.
2. We set our own standards and say hey, you want to legislate us, 
   this has been working for some time, use this.
3. Or no legistration will ever come down and this whole exercise is meaniless,
   even a liability. Seems Pat this is your point of view.
   
So which is right. History of our Government has proven that that every
loop-hole is a right that hasn't been taken away yet. Homebuilt
submarines will be effected some day.
   
> 
> Also, I am vigorously opposed to the concept that any working homebuilt sub
> not meeting someone else's personal criteria should be "banished to the
> cornfield".  That kind of censorship is just too dictatorial for me.

Where did you get this idea? I can't stop anyone from building what they want.
If I say these are resonible set of guidelines and they say hell I'll build
what I want. There is nothing I can do to stop then. If they screw up 
we can tell their relatives they chose to ignore our advice.

> All
> existing sub projects should be available to public display; good or bad,
> there's something to be learned from all of them.

Absolutely. PSUBS is the best place on the web that I have seen for
that "public display". Critique of each design would be even better.

> 
> Additionally, this movement to provide a generic model so the "newbie"  can
> achieve a safe submarine for his own enjoyment is, again, (IMOHO) an attempt
> at reinventing the wheel. Instead of creating your own knock-off model based
> on Captain George's designs, why don't you just cut to the chase and tell
> them to buy a set of Kitteredge plans, then?  You'd save yourself a lot of
> time and trouble; and wouldn't be ripping the Captain off, either.

Yep. I have advised many people over the years to build a Kittredge sub if
they want a 1ATM sub. I also have advised people to buy a SportSub if they
want an ambient sub.

Why didn't you build a Kittredge sub? Why do you expect someone else to
build a Kittredge sub? There are people out they who WANT to design and
build their own. The idea was to give them a guide as a reasonible
starting point.

> 
> And to answer in public a question that was posed to me offline, but which I
> feel should be addressed here: I am a subber, not a PSUB'er.  To me, PSUBS
> is like a "brand name" associated with this website.  I and other people I
> know were "subbers" long before this website came to be.  As an analogy:
> those I've known who design and build their own personal motorcycles are not
> "PBIKers", we are just plain "bikers".  Accordingly, when I use the term
> "subber", I speak of a longstanding global brotherhood of submarine
> enthusiasts not limited to an affiliation with this particular website
> alone.    Hope that clears up any unexpressed questions about my use of that
> term.

True. PSUBS was coined for this web site. Home built submarines have been
around long before I was born. Still, is there another site out there exists
as the melting pot for subbers to mingle and kabitz? Did you know about
Herve before PSUBS? Carsten? 

There are over 160 individuals on the alias. Whether the consider themselves
PSUBers or subbers, I don't care. As long as they are safe and live long
lives.

> 
> Pat
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doc" <doc@bionicdolphin.com>
> To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 6:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUBSAFE
> 
> 
> > Hi Carsten,
> >
> >  I think you've got a point. Perhaps instead of a "How to" book it should
> be a "Where to" reference manual.
> > I know that when designing the Bionic Dolphin, I searched high and low for
> reference material.
> > A one stop beginner's source book, like this group is becoming, could
> provide all the information
> > to safely design, build and operate a Psub and eliminate any personal
> liability from the contributors.
> >  All the information is out there, it just needs to be compiled into one
> starting place.
> >
> > Doc
> >
> >
> > Carsten Standfuss wrote:
> >
> > > > first of all and above, all subers should be certified divers, not
> only it is a good start for those who wish to travel under the water but
> also with all the basics,
> > > > many questions on this forum would not have been even asked by
> certified divers.
> > > > Herve
> > >
> > > Hi - my two cents.
> > >
> > > Herve is right - for the reason thats the most Psubs are in a divedepths
> > > were a dive exit can be survived -
> > > Psubers should have Scuba dive expirence. Also a dive course give you
> > > the expierence about human bodys
> > > under pressure..., under bouancy, under water..
> > >
> > > No need to find new rules - ABS, PVHO, GL, LRs etc based mostly on
> > > expirence.
> > > Just purchase the books and decide foryourself what is useful for a
> > > small sub and what not.
> > >
> > > But a basic example calculation with drawings - made from somebody how
> > > has allready build
> > > at least one usefull selfdesigned subs will help much more.
> > >
> > > Also a short list of absolut nessesary requirements can be displayed
> > > here on psubs - like :
> > >
> > > A Psub should have :
> > >
> > > - A drop weight
> > > - A hatch which can be easy open from both sides
> > > - A scuba gear for each person
> > > - A lifesupport system according to classification rules
> > > - A security Diver(s) during the first test dive.
> > > - A calculation of weight, bouancy and trim
> > > - A .. maybe some other points - but not to much.
> > >
> > > Boats which not fullfill (most) of this basic rules or equal solutions
> > > should not to be displayed on the Psubs Picture Gallery.. or even on a
> > > convention..
> > >
> > > - A Sub with propane in her softanks should be - blown..
> > >
> > > Carsten
> 
> 

Regards,
Ray