Re: Fw: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUBSAFE

["Captain Nemo" <vulcania@hawaii.rr.com>]

Doc and Carsten,

I like your way of looking at it, Doc.  Makes sense.  I've got to admit,
though; and without meaning to offend anybody; I have some concerns over
who'd edit and compile such a reference manual. I think that should be done
by people who have real experience in homebuilt subs, and the PSUBS
webmeisters don't.

On another point: the last thing I want to see is any group like this one
(again, comprised mainly of non-subbers) establishing the idea that
homebuilt submarines should comply with ABS, PVHO, et al.  Whereas I
recognize  the sensibility of emulating basic proven designs, this
inclination towards "commercial standards" could get out of hand if a
regulatory agency sees it as the general opinion of the homebuilt submarine
community, and decides to impose them on everyone.  That would bring an end
to most all experimental homebuilt submersibles presently being developed in
the private sector.  For example, most of us can't afford the cost of X-ray
inspections: this would put us out of business, no matter how long we've
been welding, or how clean our beads are.

There have always been separate camps represented on this website:
commercial subbers; experienced homebuilt subbers; and aspiring homebuilt
subbers.  The needs  of each group are unique unto themselves.  Any manual
seeking to support the homebuilt submarine enthusiast needs to recognize our
differences as well as our common bonds.  I would resist anything that might
eventually result in the legislative imposition of commercial standards on
homebuilt submarines; and it seems to me that what some of you guys are
suggesting could be heading in that direction.

Also, I am vigorously opposed to the concept that any working homebuilt sub
not meeting someone else's personal criteria should be "banished to the
cornfield".  That kind of censorship is just too dictatorial for me. All
existing sub projects should be available to public display; good or bad,
there's something to be learned from all of them.

Additionally, this movement to provide a generic model so the "newbie"  can
achieve a safe submarine for his own enjoyment is, again, (IMOHO) an attempt
at reinventing the wheel. Instead of creating your own knock-off model based
on Captain George's designs, why don't you just cut to the chase and tell
them to buy a set of Kitteredge plans, then?  You'd save yourself a lot of
time and trouble; and wouldn't be ripping the Captain off, either.

And to answer in public a question that was posed to me offline, but which I
feel should be addressed here: I am a subber, not a PSUB'er.  To me, PSUBS
is like a "brand name" associated with this website.  I and other people I
know were "subbers" long before this website came to be.  As an analogy:
those I've known who design and build their own personal motorcycles are not
"PBIKers", we are just plain "bikers".  Accordingly, when I use the term
"subber", I speak of a longstanding global brotherhood of submarine
enthusiasts not limited to an affiliation with this particular website
alone.    Hope that clears up any unexpressed questions about my use of that
term.

Pat


----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc" <doc@bionicdolphin.com>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SUBSAFE


> Hi Carsten,
>
>  I think you've got a point. Perhaps instead of a "How to" book it should
be a "Where to" reference manual.
> I know that when designing the Bionic Dolphin, I searched high and low for
reference material.
> A one stop beginner's source book, like this group is becoming, could
provide all the information
> to safely design, build and operate a Psub and eliminate any personal
liability from the contributors.
>  All the information is out there, it just needs to be compiled into one
starting place.
>
> Doc
>
>
> Carsten Standfuss wrote:
>
> > > first of all and above, all subers should be certified divers, not
only it is a good start for those who wish to travel under the water but
also with all the basics,
> > > many questions on this forum would not have been even asked by
certified divers.
> > > Herve
> >
> > Hi - my two cents.
> >
> > Herve is right - for the reason thats the most Psubs are in a divedepths
> > were a dive exit can be survived -
> > Psubers should have Scuba dive expirence. Also a dive course give you
> > the expierence about human bodys
> > under pressure..., under bouancy, under water..
> >
> > No need to find new rules - ABS, PVHO, GL, LRs etc based mostly on
> > expirence.
> > Just purchase the books and decide foryourself what is useful for a
> > small sub and what not.
> >
> > But a basic example calculation with drawings - made from somebody how
> > has allready build
> > at least one usefull selfdesigned subs will help much more.
> >
> > Also a short list of absolut nessesary requirements can be displayed
> > here on psubs - like :
> >
> > A Psub should have :
> >
> > - A drop weight
> > - A hatch which can be easy open from both sides
> > - A scuba gear for each person
> > - A lifesupport system according to classification rules
> > - A security Diver(s) during the first test dive.
> > - A calculation of weight, bouancy and trim
> > - A .. maybe some other points - but not to much.
> >
> > Boats which not fullfill (most) of this basic rules or equal solutions
> > should not to be displayed on the Psubs Picture Gallery.. or even on a
> > convention..
> >
> > - A Sub with propane in her softanks should be - blown..
> >
> > Carsten