Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Building a psub for sale?

[Coalbunny <coalbunny@onewest.net>]

Only in America can a person get sued for literally ANYTHING.  Car
manufacturers have been sued (though unsuccessfully, it's still
expensive), gun manufacturers, clubs, apartment/rental companies, it's
bad.  I almost got sued for autobody damage to a guys truck because my
truck was parked near the shopping cart the wind blew into his truck. 
No joke.  It's dumb, but people will sue if there's so much as a remote
chance they could win.  That's why you try to have everything covered in
writing.  Sometimes it helps and many times it doesn't.
Carl


Dan h wrote:
> 
> Herve,
> With out a doubt!  Here in the US especially everyone in dragged into a law
> suit.  What I meant be a proven design is only that it reduces that chances of
> getting involved with a problem over an nearly obvious design flaw.
> 
> The point of my posting was; the best way to avoid trouble, is to make certain
> of your part in design, construction, and passing on all information to the new
> owner, but never "certify" the new owner as qualified to do anything.
> 
> Someone posted that George Kittredge built 40 subs.   He did, but one of the
> reasons that he stopped was liability.  In his book he talks about that too.
> The hoops of certification were a costly and time consuming expense and the
> lawyers are out there just waiting for something to go wrong.
> 
> Dan H.
> 
> Herve wrote:
> 
> > Dan,
> > Coast guards cannot  determine if a buyer is qualified to operate a sub,
> > most of it because they dont know the first thing in submersibles.
> > the only thing they can do is to verify compliance with ABS or other
> > certifying agencies and if the user has basic knowledge of safety and
> > navigation.
> > for private use there is no requirement from certifying agencies , coast
> > guards determination is based on general safety, but if the coast guards
> > found out that somebody intends to release in the atmosphere H or propane
> > for ballasting they would arrest him and charge him immediately.
> > Buyer is and should be responsible for his actions
> > kittredge subs are proven design, you dont have to worry.
> >
> > But for instance, in rebreathers , there is about 5 deaths per year, every
> > time manufacturer gets sued although diver was at fault, and in the end user
> > was to be blamed.
> > my point is do not think that being a builder is a suit proof, if an
> > accident happens you will be sued anyways, so better be prepared than
> > surprised
> > Herve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dan h" <machine@epix.net>
> > To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 9:16 AM
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Building a psub for sale?
> >
> > > Carl,
> > > There are way to many "YOU'S" in your posting to limit anything.  If I
> > were building
> > > a sub that I'm going to be selling, and I am at the present time, the last
> > thing I
> > > want to do is to document myself as being such an authority that I certify
> > the buyer
> > > in all these areas.  I stand behind my work, but what I would want to do
> > mostly is,
> > > draw a clear line between my work and what the purchaser does with it.
> > > I'm building a Kittredge sub.  Since it's a proven design the chance of
> > problems
> > > found in a totally new prototype are reduced but still there.  No matter
> > what is
> > > said when, we each are responsible for our own actions.  What my concern
> > is, is not
> > > getting sucked into being responsible for someone else's actions too.
> > When I decide
> > > to sell my sub, my plans are to point out all it's attributes and also all
> > the
> > > pitfalls that I know of.  I'll also relay all safe operating instructions
> > and
> > > limitations I know of, but the last thing I want to do is be the judge
> > that
> > > determines when the buyer is QUALIFIED to operate it safely.  I doubt even
> > the Coast
> > > Guard would make that determination, and they have deeper pockets that I
> > do.
> > >
> > > Dan H.
> > >
> > > Coalbunny wrote:
> > >
> > > > Carsten and Herve, I can see where there might possibly be some options
> > > > that could circumvent any problems.  First and foremost is GET IT IN
> > > > WRITING!  And I mean EVERYTHING!  Second, if you are trained and
> > > > experienced in sub-building, get certification.  Third, upon
> > > > completetion of the sub, YOU do the tests and YOU get it certified.
> > > > Yeah, it's a pain in the butt, I imagine, but then YOU know what it can
> > > > and can't do.  Then for the grand finale, YOU train the buyer in the
> > > > operation of the sub, and you give him/her a certificate of completion
> > > > and have it signed by you and hopefully by a USCG (or the foreign
> > > > equivalent) representative.
> > > > CYAG!
> > > > Carl
> > > >
> > > > Carsten Standfuß wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Herve - I think we are mainly on the same line..
> > > > >
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > It is most likely the builder of the sub to be liable in case of
> > accident,
> > > > > > not the manufacturer of parts and equipment.
> > > > > > The user is liable if he operates the sub beyond the specifications
> > or if he
> > > > > > fails to maintain his sub.
> > > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree - the question is :
> > > > >
> > > > > Who is the user,
> > > > > who is the builder,
> > > > > who is the manufacturer ?
> > > > >
> > > > > The idear was to change the status of the builder - in this case a
> > > > > friendly,
> > > > > helpful non-professional Psuber from builder to manufacturer. And the
> > > > > status
> > > > > of the user to builder.
> > > > > Than the friendly Psuber will still responsible as manufacturer - for
> > > > > example for
> > > > > his weldings - but not for a general accident (hatch blow open
> > > > > by overpressure in 3-6 feet deep by using the wrong vale - boat sunk)
> > > > > because the
> > > > > person responsible that the unit was assambelt and the vale was marked
> > > > > is the user..
> > > > > He can be this status by just doing the logistic assambling work on
> > his
> > > > > desk.
> > > > >
> > > > > Many shops here in Germany sells the bycyles as "selfbuildings
> > its"  -
> > > > > means
> > > > > one single nut - which secured the helmpipe was unlooked. If you
> > > > > purchase this "kit"
> > > > > and secure this nut - you are the final "builder" of the hole unit.
> > > > > Yes - they are still responsible for all parts they manufacture - but
> > > > > not for
> > > > > using the unit. Or accidents during normal using the unit.
> > > > >
> > > > > >...
> > > > > > A submarine is a life support vehicle, caution is a must and
> > liability is
> > > > > > the guarantee that keeps off hazardous designs.
> > > > > >...
> > > > > And each of them is a prototype - as most ships are.. You will find
> > > > > some failtures on the first test drives..
> > > > >
> > > > > >...
> > > > > >..if you installed a non ignition proof electric device in your sub..
> > > > >
> > > > > Wau - great idear ! But were can I purchase ignition proof electric
> > > > > devices like radio transiver, sonars, GPS, electric room heater,
> > > > > generator, starter, hydraulic pumps, mainswitch boards, microwave,
> > > > > waterboiler, speakers, lamps, compressors etc.. - and who pay that
> > > > > bill.. :-?
> > > > >
> > > > > I will storage the oxygen bottles outside the hull - and the helium,
> > air
> > > > > and most of the hydrogen bottles inside - but a catalitc hydrogen
> > > > > converter
> > > > > in the top of the pressure hull seems a good idear.. a atmosphere
> > sensor
> > > > > for oxygen, pressure, hydrogen, helium, CO2, CO, etc will be also
> > > > > installed
> > > > > - and a big red flash lamp - and a destroyer-sound claxophon
> > (Boschhorn)
> > > > > which can awake also dead persons.. - if one or more of the senors
> > shows
> > > > > something outside the borders..
> > > > >
> > > > > Herve - what do you think about a label inside the sub near the helm
> > > > > like :
> > > > >
> > > > > "This unit is a toy and can be only operate in LLoyds
> > > > > AND ABS certificate swimming pools newer than 3 months
> > > > > and not deeper than 6 feet and with a security crane onshore."  :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > If the user agree that you build the sub for him - with this label
> > > > > - how is responsible if he use it in the open sea or in a
> > > > > 7 feet deep lake ?
> > > > >
> > > > > see you - Carsten
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Watch your thoughts; they become words....
> > > > Watch your words; they become actions....
> > > > Watch your actions; they become habits....
> > > > Watch your habits; they become character....
> > > > Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
> > >
> > >
> > >

-- 
Watch your thoughts; they become words....
Watch your words; they become actions....
Watch your actions; they become habits....
Watch your habits; they become character....
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.