Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Building a psub for sale?

["Herve" <caribsub@coqui.net>]

Dan,
Coast guards cannot  determine if a buyer is qualified to operate a sub,
most of it because they dont know the first thing in submersibles.
the only thing they can do is to verify compliance with ABS or other
certifying agencies and if the user has basic knowledge of safety and
navigation.
for private use there is no requirement from certifying agencies , coast
guards determination is based on general safety, but if the coast guards
found out that somebody intends to release in the atmosphere H or propane
for ballasting they would arrest him and charge him immediately.
Buyer is and should be responsible for his actions
kittredge subs are proven design, you dont have to worry.

But for instance, in rebreathers , there is about 5 deaths per year, every
time manufacturer gets sued although diver was at fault, and in the end user
was to be blamed.
my point is do not think that being a builder is a suit proof, if an
accident happens you will be sued anyways, so better be prepared than
surprised
Herve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan h" <machine@epix.net>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Building a psub for sale?


> Carl,
> There are way to many "YOU'S" in your posting to limit anything.  If I
were building
> a sub that I'm going to be selling, and I am at the present time, the last
thing I
> want to do is to document myself as being such an authority that I certify
the buyer
> in all these areas.  I stand behind my work, but what I would want to do
mostly is,
> draw a clear line between my work and what the purchaser does with it.
> I'm building a Kittredge sub.  Since it's a proven design the chance of
problems
> found in a totally new prototype are reduced but still there.  No matter
what is
> said when, we each are responsible for our own actions.  What my concern
is, is not
> getting sucked into being responsible for someone else's actions too.
When I decide
> to sell my sub, my plans are to point out all it's attributes and also all
the
> pitfalls that I know of.  I'll also relay all safe operating instructions
and
> limitations I know of, but the last thing I want to do is be the judge
that
> determines when the buyer is QUALIFIED to operate it safely.  I doubt even
the Coast
> Guard would make that determination, and they have deeper pockets that I
do.
>
> Dan H.
>
> Coalbunny wrote:
>
> > Carsten and Herve, I can see where there might possibly be some options
> > that could circumvent any problems.  First and foremost is GET IT IN
> > WRITING!  And I mean EVERYTHING!  Second, if you are trained and
> > experienced in sub-building, get certification.  Third, upon
> > completetion of the sub, YOU do the tests and YOU get it certified.
> > Yeah, it's a pain in the butt, I imagine, but then YOU know what it can
> > and can't do.  Then for the grand finale, YOU train the buyer in the
> > operation of the sub, and you give him/her a certificate of completion
> > and have it signed by you and hopefully by a USCG (or the foreign
> > equivalent) representative.
> > CYAG!
> > Carl
> >
> > Carsten Standfuß wrote:
> > >
> > > Herve - I think we are mainly on the same line..
> > >
> > > > ...
> > > > It is most likely the builder of the sub to be liable in case of
accident,
> > > > not the manufacturer of parts and equipment.
> > > > The user is liable if he operates the sub beyond the specifications
or if he
> > > > fails to maintain his sub.
> > > > ...
> > >
> > > I agree - the question is :
> > >
> > > Who is the user,
> > > who is the builder,
> > > who is the manufacturer ?
> > >
> > > The idear was to change the status of the builder - in this case a
> > > friendly,
> > > helpful non-professional Psuber from builder to manufacturer. And the
> > > status
> > > of the user to builder.
> > > Than the friendly Psuber will still responsible as manufacturer - for
> > > example for
> > > his weldings - but not for a general accident (hatch blow open
> > > by overpressure in 3-6 feet deep by using the wrong vale - boat sunk)
> > > because the
> > > person responsible that the unit was assambelt and the vale was marked
> > > is the user..
> > > He can be this status by just doing the logistic assambling work on
his
> > > desk.
> > >
> > > Many shops here in Germany sells the bycyles as "selfbuildings
its"  -
> > > means
> > > one single nut - which secured the helmpipe was unlooked. If you
> > > purchase this "kit"
> > > and secure this nut - you are the final "builder" of the hole unit.
> > > Yes - they are still responsible for all parts they manufacture - but
> > > not for
> > > using the unit. Or accidents during normal using the unit.
> > >
> > > >...
> > > > A submarine is a life support vehicle, caution is a must and
liability is
> > > > the guarantee that keeps off hazardous designs.
> > > >...
> > > And each of them is a prototype - as most ships are.. You will find
> > > some failtures on the first test drives..
> > >
> > > >...
> > > >..if you installed a non ignition proof electric device in your sub..
> > >
> > > Wau - great idear ! But were can I purchase ignition proof electric
> > > devices like radio transiver, sonars, GPS, electric room heater,
> > > generator, starter, hydraulic pumps, mainswitch boards, microwave,
> > > waterboiler, speakers, lamps, compressors etc.. - and who pay that
> > > bill.. :-?
> > >
> > > I will storage the oxygen bottles outside the hull - and the helium,
air
> > > and most of the hydrogen bottles inside - but a catalitc hydrogen
> > > converter
> > > in the top of the pressure hull seems a good idear.. a atmosphere
sensor
> > > for oxygen, pressure, hydrogen, helium, CO2, CO, etc will be also
> > > installed
> > > - and a big red flash lamp - and a destroyer-sound claxophon
(Boschhorn)
> > > which can awake also dead persons.. - if one or more of the senors
shows
> > > something outside the borders..
> > >
> > > Herve - what do you think about a label inside the sub near the helm
> > > like :
> > >
> > > "This unit is a toy and can be only operate in LLoyds
> > > AND ABS certificate swimming pools newer than 3 months
> > > and not deeper than 6 feet and with a security crane onshore."  :-)
> > >
> > > If the user agree that you build the sub for him - with this label
> > > - how is responsible if he use it in the open sea or in a
> > > 7 feet deep lake ?
> > >
> > > see you - Carsten
> >
> > --
> > Watch your thoughts; they become words....
> > Watch your words; they become actions....
> > Watch your actions; they become habits....
> > Watch your habits; they become character....
> > Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
>
>
>