[PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site

Wed Jun 28 14:52:49 EDT 2023

I do not know much about Karls sub.

But I know a lot about my subs. And a lot of other people self build subs.  

Euronaut is build to class rules, to Germanischer Lloyd, Swiss Lloyds and 
ASME code from 1987. 
Is it classed ? No it is not. It  is x-rayed - yes it is. Did I use 
certified Material for the pressure hull steel and windows ? - Yes I Do. 
Did I listen to other people during the construction? Yes I do - one reason 
I am in the Psubs group by the way.. 
And one reason the sub was much more expensive than calculate in the 
begining. 

Did ever a class inspector see the vessel - no. Did it have more backup 
systems than class required - yes it has. 

Would class accept my sub if  I put the money for them in - no the would 
not - some equipment is second hand without
papers like the diesel engine, the electric motor and most of th aviation 
gauges, intercom and so on. 

But do I ever carry paying guest to make money? - No never. For this 
purpose you can rent a classed tourist submarine. 

Over the years we found that some class rules are to expensive for small 
private build and owned sub. Technical and cost overkill. 
So I write a simpler form of class rules to adoped for smaller vessels 
(Psubs)  - but not for passenger vessels. 
(and not for the US-market for insurance reasons)

But this is not the point. If the titan vessel has class or not is not 
important to me.
If a inpector see the vessel or not - is not important to me. 

For me is important: 

- Has he an hatch to escape a smoke or fire on the surface? 
- Can the boat surface fully on it own?  
- Has he a backup ROV on the Mothership or another submarine incase of an 
emergency in such heavy deeps were nobody can help him?
- Is the hull proper tested? 
- Has it a proper navigation and comunication system?
- Has the designrr listen to the white old man's with over 30-40 years 
expirence in these field? Or did he ignore he some or all advices?
- And so on .. 

For me he was looking for the cheapest way to get rich people to the 
titanic. 
This 19 year old son was not killed by a submarine acciedent- he was killed 
by a white old man ignorance.. 
He was afraid about this sub and dont want to get in - what did say say to 
make him get in? 

PS : I dont care about the controller either. 

Carsten 

-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
Datum: 2023-06-24T19:38:39+0200
Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" 
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" 
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>

How do you know Idabel is built mostly to ABS rules?  Because Stanley says 
so?  

As I used to tell Will Kohnen, there are only two kinds of submarines in 
the world; certified and non-certified.  If a sub is not certified it 
doesn't matter what they are used for, what they carry, or how deep they 
dive; you do not know and cannot say with certainty whether it meets ABS 
standards regardless of who fabricated it.  A non-certified vessel built by 
the best submarine builder in the world cannot be proven to be any more in 
compliance with ABS standards than the psubber that builds a non-certified 
K350 in their backyard.  It is the certification that proves compliance to 
standards and that makes all non-certified submarines equal.  I think we 
may all agree there can be obvious signs of an unsafe vessel, however in 
totality the concept of how "safe" a non-certified submarine is, is 
subjective.

I don't have anything against Stanley and am not suggesting he be reigned 
in, however Sean has asked a perfectly reasonable question and I think 
before we start holding anyone accountable for the Titan loss we need to 
know whether the industry is going to endorse double standards or hold 
everyone to the same standard.

Bringing the question back to you...take out the personalities, 
friendships, and acquaintances...look only at the facts...there is a 
non-certified submarine taking passengers-for-hire to a depth of 3000 feet 
in an unsupervised environment.  Does PSUBS have a responsibility to 
petition ABS or the courts to intervene and stop the operation because it 
might be unsafe?

Jon

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:10:28 PM EDT, hank pronk via 
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Sean raises a good point.  There is however a big difference.  Karl’s sub 
is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering 
guidelines.  My issue is not with being classed.  Classing a sub does not 
make it safer, it just proves it is safe.  The boiler plate waiver would 
apply and be sufficient in Karl’s case. 
Hank

Sent from my iPhone

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