[PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers

Fri May 6 21:03:38 EDT 2016

Great stuff Cliff, thanks. I'll be back to design conversations!

> On May 6, 2016, at 5:09 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> 
> Alec, in my boat I really like the spring return on the joystick for all three axis.  I can not see my thrusters and don't have any active feedback on thruster speed so being able to take my hand off the joystick and or foot peddle and have the boat slow to a stop and stabilize in the water column is nice.  The one control that lends itself to non spring return is the vertical thrusters for all the reasons you mention.
> 
> With boats like yours in which you have a big spread between CG-CB and are not trying to control pitch you might consider using a single 3-axis joy stick with forward-aft joystick direction controlling forward and aft boat movement via aft horizontal thrusters.  Port and starboard direction on joystick controlling port and starboard crabbing motion via your tilted vertical thrusters.  The Z axis on the joystick  controling rotating in a clockwise or counterclockwise direction about the CG using the techniques I use on my boat which is using this signal to add and subtract voltage to the aft thrusters.  For depth station keeping use a hall effect  slider or thumb wheel.  I am sure you can find both the joystick and the slider/thumbwheel  with a IP67 rating.   To link Z axis signal, you can use a PLC like I use or could get your electrics guy to design a small custom PCB that do the same thing.  A nice benefit of controlling the four thrusters as described is that you only need one hand and to me is very intuitive.
> 
> One last point.  the MK 101 controller boards generate a very non linear response to a linear input signal and have a large dead band around 2.5 volts.  The net effect of this is you have very high  low speed control of the motor. Near the dead band you can get the prop to spin at super slow speed like  one revelation per 5 seconds. 
> 
> On my bollard thrust testing rig, I measure the rpm of the MK101 motor and can log motor speed (as well as current and supply voltage) as function of the 0-5v control signal to the motor controller card.  On my to do list is to plot this to show this nice non linear behavior.   I think the MK guys designed this way to give the trolling motor a lot of control for slow speed maneuvering.
> 
> Cliff
> 
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> A couple of reasons... After chewing on this and hearing feedback from you guys, what I would like from a UI perspective is a combination of Alan's "tractor control" and what I had in Snoopy. 
>> 
>> Let's start with the stern thrusters, for which I really like the "tractor control" paradigm. We considered a pair of small single axis joysticks for the stern thrusters. One shortcoming is that they have only 20 or 25 degrees of movement each forward or aft of center. As they're small, and the full throttle gets applied over those 25 degrees, it could be a bit too sensitive. In addition, I would like the control not to have any spring return so that the boat keeps going and I can momentarily take my hands off the controls. We did find a mini-joystick without spring return, but it only had 20 degree range. The pots I used on Snoopy had 270 degrees. Like in Snoopy, what we would do is mount these on the sides (not top) of the control box, and put handles on them rather than knobs. We would mount them so the handles are vertical in the dead zone, and if we can add some sort of mechanical clicker to indicate that position. Like in Snoopy, the pots will have O rings on the shafts.
>> 
>> The side thrusters are a bit trickier. On Snoopy I used to dive positive and used one of the pots to throttle both side thrusters simultaneously. It worked like a charm, it was like having a "depth control." But on the new sub the side thrusters are angled outward, so we will want differential throttling in order to crab, even though I expect crabbing to be relatively rare. From a UI perspective my first choice would have been to control the side thrusters with two parallel slider pots. I would align them right next to each other on the face of the control box, facing fore-aft. For downward thrust slide both down together, for surfacing thrust slide them up. In my experience the side thruster settings are much more static than the stern thrusters, you don't change depth as much as you change direction horizontally. In the rare event you need to crab this is a bit counter-intuitive but you would move the sliders in opposite directions. However, there is a fatal flaw in that plan - we could not find any sliders that are IP66 or IP67 rated, and it's a basic requirement that the control box should survive a direct hit by a wave, or even being dropped in the ocean. We looked at thumb-wheels, which would be almost as nice as the sliders, but those too have watertightness issues. So at the moment the thinking is to use the same trick as for the stern thrusters, but with really tiny handles and the pots perhaps in a small box mounted on top of the main control box. If anyone has any suggestions for something more intuitive that is watertight, I'm all ears! This has been a very valuable discussion thread to me, I really appreciate the input.
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Alec 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>> Alec, why not use off the conventional  2 or thee axis joys sticks rather than individually controlling 4 potentiometers connected to motor controllers?  It is very easy to have the joysticks act like the pots that are hard wired on the MK controller boards.  Just cut the pots off.  Three wires are left, 5V supply, signal and ground.  Each of the axis on a joystick is typically something like a hall affect potentiometer so you send it 5v and get back as signal a between 0-5vdc signal. 
>>> I know KISS principle is important to you but this is very KISS.  You don't need a PLC. 
>>> 
>>> Cliff
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi Cliff,
>>>> 
>>>> It appears the MK controller will do just what I need it to, but there is one detail that has be a bit concerned. From what I see it appears the main motor current is all going through a single spade connector. Close to 50 amps through one of those little guys is a lot, and the connectors themselves don't take very fat cables. Have you had any issues with that? 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> Alec
>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:38 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>> http://m.ebay.com/itm/MINN-KOTA-TRAXXIS-TROLLING-MOTOR-MAIN-CONTROL-BOARD-PN-2184017-OR-2184027-/371336409933
>>>>> 
>>>>> Standard part that can be ordered just about everywhere.  Shows up on eBay quite often.  MK part no.  is 2184017.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cliff Redus
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Alec 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters.  They have worked great.  They are potted and rugged.  They have an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.  This means that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered up while in the garage.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis.  This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cliff Redus
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What did Cliff use?
>>>>>>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101.
>>>>>>>> Alan
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more advanced  dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks guys for all the input!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Alec
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Alec,
>>>>>>>> that one says brushless?
>>>>>>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests.....
>>>>>>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR?
>>>>>>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.
>>>>>>>>    I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose continual
>>>>>>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.
>>>>>>>>    I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some manufacturers over rate
>>>>>>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their ratings accurate,
>>>>>>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the ON light
>>>>>>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the pre-ignition resister
>>>>>>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!
>>>>>>>> Alan
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to consider?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Alec
>>>>>>>> 
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