Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society rules

[irox <irox@ix.netcom.com>]

Hi Jon,

thanks for the reply.  Of course, we can never know what
the response will be to a fatal accident until the time
comes, but I think it would take a series of unfortunate
events (or an accident at psubs sponsored event) before
people start to look at psubs and your question of how is
psubs viewed comes in to play.  I think we've done a good
job of promoting safety, more so now that in the past.
Some scary subs have popped up on this list, but everything
I've seen in the last few years has appeared solid and
thought out with an eye to safety.

The idea of "policing" conjures thoughts of policies and
legislation and enforcement.  Which is probably why the
thread turned away from ABS standards as a guide topic.

Cheers!
 Ian.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Jon Wallace <jonw@psubs.org>
>Sent: Jun 8, 2010 10:00 AM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society rules
>
>
>Hi Ian,
>
>We have a lot less information on dive time, however I hope to change 
>that by the end of the year with a side project I am working on.  Yet 
>another topic I planned for the business meeting some months ago.  I am 
>almost ready to announce availability of the first part of that project, 
>probably in the next couple of weeks.  If I am unable to finish it by 
>July 14 I would still be happy to demo it for you in Florida.
>
>I don't believe there is any desire to invite legislation by any of us 
>that would further restrict our hobby.  This topic has morphed to that, 
>but perhaps that is a good thing since the original discussion of using 
>ABS (or GL, Lloyds, Nippon, take your pick) as a guide probably does not 
>appear so offensive now.
>
>In regards to your first question of self-policing, I believe the 
>concern is that someone with a poorly designed or fabricated vessel 
>could someday kill themselves or someone else resulting in a 
>well-intentioned politician taking action to protect the rest of us 
>legislatively by requiring all subs be certified.  There certainly is 
>good argument as to whether that course would ever actually play out in 
>the event of a private submariner death, and admittedly we cannot know 
>for sure.  If that time does arrive, then perception of this group will 
>become important.  Will we be seen as a disjointed group of individuals 
>who ignore conventional wisdom, or will we be seen as a structured group 
>who are concerned with safety and can demonstrate it?
>
>Jon
>
>
>
>irox wrote:
>> Hi Jon,
>>
>> was doing a similar psubs count in my head the other day, I got
>> up to over 30 of them, but realized probably a more pertinent
>> question is how many active psubs are there.  I.E.  how many
>> psubs dived in the last 12 months?  I am guessing this number
>> is much lower.
>>
>> I feel we should avoid inviting or preempting any additional
>> legislation for private submarines.  We are already subject
>> to the same level of inspection and legislation as a home
>> made boat, and if we so desire we can (at a cost) subject
>> our own projects ABS (or some other authority's) legislation
>> process.  And of course, if a psub completely failed the ABS
>> cert process, there is no legal implications preventing the
>> owner from operating it.
>>
>> Two other questions that sprang to mind while reading this thread,
>> "what are we scared of that requires policing" and "what benefits
>> would we get from additional legislation".  I can't help but
>> notice that all the badly designed/built psubs don't make it
>> passed a "dunk" type test - this is normally followed by the owner
>> selling it and/or taking up a different hobby.  The only real
>> time I see a need for self policing is in the case another list
>> member brought up - somebody attempting to dive an unsafe psub
>> at the convention.  At this point we should alert the appropriate
>> water body authority and wash our hands of the situation(...?).
>>
>> As for the benefits, I can't really find any benefits which I
>> don't already have access to if I desire (for example, hiring
>> an engineer or ABS surveyor to do inspections/calculations). 
>>
>> That been said, I am quite pro-ABS standards, especially for
>> submersibles, and I intend to follow them as closely as I can.
>> Unfortunately ABS doesn't contain a section for certifying
>> concrete pressure hulls.  However many bodies have dealt with
>> certifying concrete structures (bridges, tunnels, dams,
>> skyscrapers, oilrigs, etc.), so I don't think it'll be too
>> hard to draft up some procedures which are similar (in process
>> and spirit) to something the ABS might write.
>>
>> I expect we will be discussing this topic in some depth at
>> this years convention. :)
>>
>> Cheers!
>>  Ian.
>>   
>
>
>
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