Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society rules

[irox <irox@ix.netcom.com>]

Hi Jon,

was doing a similar psubs count in my head the other day, I got
up to over 30 of them, but realized probably a more pertinent
question is how many active psubs are there.  I.E.  how many
psubs dived in the last 12 months?  I am guessing this number
is much lower.

I feel we should avoid inviting or preempting any additional
legislation for private submarines.  We are already subject
to the same level of inspection and legislation as a home
made boat, and if we so desire we can (at a cost) subject
our own projects ABS (or some other authority's) legislation
process.  And of course, if a psub completely failed the ABS
cert process, there is no legal implications preventing the
owner from operating it.

Two other questions that sprang to mind while reading this thread,
"what are we scared of that requires policing" and "what benefits
would we get from additional legislation".  I can't help but
notice that all the badly designed/built psubs don't make it
passed a "dunk" type test - this is normally followed by the owner
selling it and/or taking up a different hobby.  The only real
time I see a need for self policing is in the case another list
member brought up - somebody attempting to dive an unsafe psub
at the convention.  At this point we should alert the appropriate
water body authority and wash our hands of the situation(...?).

As for the benefits, I can't really find any benefits which I
don't already have access to if I desire (for example, hiring
an engineer or ABS surveyor to do inspections/calculations). 

That been said, I am quite pro-ABS standards, especially for
submersibles, and I intend to follow them as closely as I can.
Unfortunately ABS doesn't contain a section for certifying
concrete pressure hulls.  However many bodies have dealt with
certifying concrete structures (bridges, tunnels, dams,
skyscrapers, oilrigs, etc.), so I don't think it'll be too
hard to draft up some procedures which are similar (in process
and spirit) to something the ABS might write.

I expect we will be discussing this topic in some depth at
this years convention. :)

Cheers!
 Ian.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Jon Wallace <jonw@psubs.org>
>Sent: Jun 7, 2010 11:50 PM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society rules
>
>
>Hi Alan,
>
>Your guess is certainly as plausible as any others I've been able to 
>think of.  You make some good points, however I'm skeptical about 
>ignoring ABS in regards to their rule making procedure which includes 
>input from industry sectors such as commercial and passenger carrying 
>vessels, but not the private sector.  I've always felt it's much better 
>to be proactive in hopes of setting your own future in case the worst 
>happens rather than waiting for the worst to happen and then react to 
>it.  Remember also, as someone else said earlier, it's not ABS that will 
>be regulating us but government, insurance companies, etc.  I don't 
>think we have anything to lose, or fear, by participating with ABS or 
>any other rule making authority.  At worst, they ignore our input.  At 
>best, we make things better for ourselves.
>
>We have power as a special interest group if we use our resources wisely 
>and speak with a common voice.  I just counted about 60 manned 
>submersibles listed on the MTSMUV web site.  I know of about 55 private 
>manned submersibles from the psubber community.  I suspect there are 
>other commercial/research vessels that exist which are not listed on the 
>MTSMUV website, but I also know there are many private p-subs 
>submersibles not listed on our web site either.  We'll have to do a more 
>thorough inventory count, but it's very possible we in the private 
>sector already are as large as the commercial sector, if not larger.  So 
>I think we have a valid claim to make in asking to have our voice heard, 
>and I think we have a valid question in "Why are you ignoring us?"  Not 
>just of ABS, but any cert agency or other entity.
>
>Jon
>
>
>
>Alan James wrote:
>> Hugh & Jon,
>> Maybe ABS don't want to talk to amateurs because they want to turn a 
>> blind
>> eye to what could become unpopular & complicated. To have a lesser
>> classification  would mean that they would have to compromise existing 
>> rules
>> that they feel are important.
>> As long as they ignore us, lets ignore them & enjoy the freedom.
>> I don't think we've grown to the point where it's worth considering 
>> regulation
>> or certification. I only know of 2 homebuilt subs in NZ.
>> You can scuba dive in NZ without getting any certification & basically 
>> you
>> are a wet submarine with human propulsion that's exposed to large man 
>> eating
>> predators, the bends, nitrogen narcosis etc. There are an estimated 90 
>> deaths
>> per year world wide for scuba. Hugh mentioned hang gliding; all of my 
>> 3 friends that
>> paraglide have ended up in hospital as a result & I know of many more.
>> The US Hang glider association had a 1.33 percent fatality rate per 
>> year of it's
>> members over a 10 year period. That's a 1 in 10 chance of getting 
>> killed if you
>> continue that sport for 10 years let alone getting injured.
>> What I'm saying is that compared with what's out there I don't think 
>> we need to get
>> paranoid about being regulated.
>> What is going on in the group at the moment seems pretty good. If 
>> someone is
>> doing anything suspect the whole group lets them know it (as I've 
>> found out ).
>> Regards Alan
>>
>
>
>
>
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