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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]glass/ fibre 02 bottles [1/2]
From: "Phil Nuytten" <phil@philnuytten.com>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
References: <549796.709.qm@web111704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1258.85.19.223.188.1275731376.squirrel@webmail1.clsmail.net><4C0AB433.3080404@psubs.org><AANLkTimycEj89goKHjc2soMD5gLZwvu3i60MxPVinHBf@mail.gmail.com><8099C2DF7567409D99E03F76239C8CF5@pn1> <AANLkTimwTJDsJbgWCRbkxNf2IfmRMjxeo7KHb-8SVSLI@mail.gmail.com> <AA6F2BE4D8704564A1E8B01B7388FDF3@pn1> <4c0bf1ed.0164730a.3c26.08cb@mx.google.com>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]glass/ fibre 02 bottles
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 14:16:45 -0700
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Hi, Hugh
I'll forward your email to myself at the office (so I don't forget) and =
check with our purchasing guy tomorrow.
Phil
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Hugh Fulton=20
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org=20
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society
HI Phil,
I am having real trouble tyring to buy light weight oxygen cylinders =
down here. Can I ask a favour as to who I can buy the Luxfer fibre =
cylinders from that you use?
Regards, Hugh
=20
=20
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org =
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Phil Nuytten
Sent: Monday, 7 June 2010 6:49 a.m.
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society
=20
Wil:
Not to belabour the subject, but probably important to get it right. =
The figure quoted is for a new build - that is, a design that has not =
been previously classed by any accepted agency. The majority of the cost =
is for 'plan approval' - where the agency's technical people/engineers =
go over the detailed submissions, checking out each calculation, each =
FEA, each fab drawing, strain gauge results, radiography, compliance =
surveys reports, etc. Once plan approval has been granted then that =
specific design package is given what is called 'type approval' or 'type =
class' or 'model approval' or 'serial design approval' (differing =
terminology in different agencies). This simply means that the specific =
design approved can be duplicated any number of times without the =
necessity for plan approval each time. That allows you to absorb the not =
inconsiderable cost of plan approval over several builds - as long as =
you don't change anything. You can upgrade or change features from the =
drawings on file with the agency, but each change must be approved (at =
some cost) and the new drawings supersede the originals ( the original =
drawings are retained for annual and major survey purposes on existing =
subs of the original model.
All this is presumably fine for manufacturers like us - but an =
unrealistic burden for a home builder! (actually, it's not even fine for =
us - a hundred grand for plan approval and a fairly standard pricing =
scale of about a hundred bucks an hour for a registered, qualified =
engineer means that the classing agency is proposing to spend something =
like a thousand hours on design review ??) - (less the agency's mark-up, =
of course). On a 40 hour week, that's twenty weeks - factor in the =
weekends and holidays and it's half a year! It doesn't take a qualified =
engineer anywhere near that time to actually prepare the entire plan, do =
the calculations, etc., =20
Hmmm - I'm on a soap-box, I see.=20
Re: Roatan and Stanley's 'the best insurance is the fact that I'm with =
you' - that's sarcastically referred to as the 'Reverend Jones waiver' =
in the biz. (as in " go ahead and drink the Cool-aid, see, I'm drinking =
it, too! "- old-timers will get the reference, quickly.=20
Phil
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Wilfried Ellmer=20
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org=20
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society
=20
Hello Phil,
Sorry for a "not terribly accurate" interpetation of your opinion =
about classification of private personal subs and thanks your =
clarfification of this point.
Of course i am aware that you do a lot of classing in your business =
for several reasons.
Thanks for putting some overall numbers on the discussion, 150.000 =
USD budget (minimum) for doing paperwork if you go for clasification =
(with a standard proyect - nothing fancy).
Which means projects that can not afford that sum (for paperwork) =
are automatically pushed out of "viability zone".
For what you call "rad new concepts" you need a lot more (add a =
couple of ceros to the number).
At the end the most critical point is liability - you can get ruined =
by the defense costs even if you win it at the end.=20
If you do something commercial in a "high liability entanglement =
risk" segment it is convenient to have some deep thoughts about "project =
risk management".
I find it interesting that Roatan comes to your mind in that =
context. I estimate Karl Stanley a lot for his guts and his business =
model - his oral waiver for sub passengers is legendary - "this sub is =
not=20
classed your only guarantee is - i come with you" - close the hatch =
and dive.
=20
Looks like most of his customers are just fine with that.
It has a long tradition in multinational companies to do the R&D =
pilot projects in countries where "nanny state security" is not a =
"politically desired" and "legally implemented" status. (I am writing =
this=20
lines from south america.)
European Submarine Structures AB has Headquaters in Stockholm =
(Sweden) and a R&D Branch in Cartagena South America.
Maybe we should talk about a "low paperwork hassle" R&D cooperation =
for some of the "rad new concepts" - make them work in a ambient where =
paperwork cost and hassle is not the decicive project management=20
factor.
The basic question is: Why should i pay 150.000 USD to clear the =
question "is it safe?" - when a 50 USD test proceedure can give me a so =
much better answer.
150.000 is a lot of money for getting what is finally just a =
"opinion". If i invest this in test series, double the material =
strength, i can get a lot more safety for the money - much more "bang =
for the=20
bug" as you say.
The good thing is classification is a "CAN HAVE" not a "MUST HAVE" - =
for private sub builders and they should be interested to keep it that =
way and not prepare the ground that overregulation and=20
administrative overhead costs pushes the sport into the "no =
viability zone".
Wil
concretesubmarine.com
2010/6/5 Phil Nuytten <phil@philnuytten.com>
Hey, Wil!
Err - Phil didn't 'recommend not to go for ABS' (or any other =
certifying agencies, for that matter). I do question the value of having =
a classed sub if you don't plan to take passengers for hire or those who =
would not be willing to sign a 'draconian' waiver to dive in your sub. =
The cost of initial 'plan approval' and then the many visits by =
surveyors during the construction phase, pressure tests and sea-trials =
can easily chew up a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. The prices =
vary, but all are expensive for a home-built - where you can't pass the =
cost on to a customer. We have actually had potential customers change =
their minds about buying a semi-custom sub from us, when they found that =
certification of a new build could easily bet ten percent of the =
purchase price. =20
I believe that a home-built should should follow the accepted PVHO =
and MTS guidlines for construction, however innovative the design.
Just be prepared that if your rad new concept is subject to plan =
approval by a classing agency because you want it classed, for whatever =
reason, you may have to open a small vein!
The alternative? Put the sub under regular insurance for theft, =
fire, etc. and self-insure for total loss. This doesn't cut it for =
liability, however, and though your iron-clad waiver may carry the day, =
you can't stop the victim or his estate from bringing an action if =
he/they so choose - and defense can be expensive, with no guarantee that =
you'll recover legal costs, even if you win.
For the record, our subs are classed variously by Lloyds, ABS, =
Cayman, and DNV.
Also for the record, I've been personally responsible for the =
classing of more than 90 'submersibles' of one type or another, so it's =
not terribly accurate to say that I don't believe in sub classification, =
period!
Or, if you want to avoid all paperwork hassles - maybe move to =
Roatan! =20
=20
=20
---- Original Message -----=20
From: Wilfried Ellmer=20
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org=20
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society
=20
Hello Jon,
I have not been on this forum for quite a while...just a few =
inputs.
Doing something PIONEER while staying within STANDARDS is like =
putting edges on a circle.
If you want to be a "explorer" and keep a "defensive legal =
position" all the time - how will that work?
Safety is NOT the same as "Standard conform" - safety does not =
come from stamping - safety comes from solid testing and solid =
overbuild. No matter if it is standard conform or not.
The sea does not know if your hull is stamped, approved, standard =
conform...whatever...it just finds your crush depth - stay sufficiently =
away from it - 1:3 - testing is the key.
If you want to build a sub according to a "industrial pressure =
vessel standard" it will look, feel, and basicly - be, a "industrial =
pressure vessel" - who is really dreaming about "industrial pressure =
vessels" ?
Who wants to have one? Sail one?
What is psubs.org good for if it is only a pointer to a =
"industrial pressure vessel standard" ? - if you restrict free concepts =
you are basicly out of business.
Why does Phil Nuytten who really has built a lot of subs recommend =
not to go for ABS (not worth it) ?
Wil
concretesubmarine.com
2010/6/5 Jon Wallace <jonw@psubs.org>
Jens Laland wrote:
Is this forum meant to be an exclusive "submarine kit-builder's =
society"
=20
=20
No, however I don't think Greg was insinuating that either, rather =
he was simply trying to rally potential builders out there to "git =
kraken" as Frank would say.=20
Or, will there still be room for people taking the time required =
to work
on new design or technology, and who needs a forum where they can =
present
their work in a multitude of forms; like figments, dreams, ideas,
questions, proposals, concepts, sketches, images, stories, =
discussions,
mock-ups, scale models, etc.?
=20
=20
New design and technology discussions are fine as long as they are =
both practical and discussed responsibly. Practical means in the =
context of home-builders and responsible means having resources to back =
up assertions and proposals, or demonstrating that you are following a =
safe path towards your goal. Of utmost import is safety and it must be =
applied diligently to all discussion including concepts, proposals, =
design, fabrication and operation. This list is public and we have a =
responsibility to be careful how we present "new" concepts and =
"unproven" technology so that casual readers or well-intentioned but =
undisciplined sub-builders don't take those concepts as definitive =
alternatives to traditional materials or procedures that are known to =
work reliably. Enforcing this discipline upon ourselves strengthens us =
as a group and projects a positive image to the public as well as =
government entities and our industry partners.
Figments and dreams not based in practical application to home =
builders, or that cannot be shown to be (or include) safe practices, are =
not appropriate for this public list and should be discussed in the =
"experimental" mailing list available to members through your PSUBS =
accounts. The experimental mailing list was created specifically to =
allow discussion of unproven ideas and concepts, and to let those with =
minds who want to wander free, do so.=20
I assume we have gotten here from the FRP discussion. I know =
nothing about FRP or its viability for PVHO, however it seems to be =
indisputable that FRP for such use is not mainstream. However, the fact =
remains that research is being done on the material for use as cylinders =
under external pressure as evidenced by the experiments conducted by =
Carl Ross in the UK. The fact that ABS has no certification available =
for FRP pressure hulls should not be discarded so lightly. While it is =
possible that ABS is just behind the times as has been suggested, it is =
also as equally possible and plausible that they know a bit of something =
about the material in terms of fabrication for PVHO and have valid =
reasons for not creating standards for it.
At PSUBS we have adopted and promote the philosophy that =
home-built subs should be built according to ABS standards. The primary =
reason for doing so is to promote the safe design, fabrication, and =
operation of small home-built submarines based upon proven industry =
standards accepted by almost everyone. This gives us credibility and =
projects us in a positive light to both the public and those authorities =
for which these things matter and whom have the ability to regulate us. =
It also binds us to a common standard when the need arises to justify =
our decision for a particular fabrication method or operational =
procedure. Unfortunately, there are too many people in the world who =
would want to "save us" from ourselves. Not adopting any standard puts =
us on the defensive when challenged about the safety of our vessels. =
Associating ourselves with industry standards such as ABS gives us the =
upper-hand in any such confrontation.
Now perhaps it may be more obvious why some people are challenging =
the use of FRP for a submarine hull. The fact that ABS does not have =
standards for FRP when used for a PVHO doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss =
it, but it does mean we need to discuss it responsibly and cautiously. =
I think Alan has been taking pains to do both when discussing his plans =
for using FPR, including using a composite engineer, talking about the =
expense and weight, and suggesting that he will abandon the idea if it =
is either economically unfeasible or otherwise impractical. Alan has =
not employed the typical topic structure we've seen in the past where =
someone throws out an idea as if it is fact and then defends it with =
something like "nothing is impossible". It sounds like he is taking a =
measured approach and doing some significant research into the =
feasibility of the material for his specific design criteria. As long =
as it continues in that manner I don't see a problem with having Alan =
update us on his progress. Challenging new designs and materials is =
good medicine for those embarking on projects that do not conform to ABS =
standards, and in my opinion those designers need to "step up to the =
plate" and accept it. As I have said before to others, don't take =
offense to being challenged about your ideas or plans, especially by a =
group that has a duty to further safe practices for an inherently =
dangerous hobby. If you really believe in what you are doing, accept =
the criticisms as a challenge to drive your project to complete success =
and show us that you were right.
Jon=20
=
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi, Hugh</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'll forward your email to myself at =
the office (so=20
I don't forget) and check with our purchasing guy tomorrow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Phil</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dhc.fulton@gmail.com =
href=3D"mailto:hc.fulton@gmail.com";>Hugh Fulton</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dpersonal_submersibles@psubs.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org";>personal_submersibles@psu=
bs.org</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, June 06, 2010 =
12:07=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =
submarine=20
kit-builder's society</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">HI=20
Phil,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">I=20
am having real trouble tyring to buy light weight oxygen cylinders =
down=20
here. Can I ask a favour as to who I can buy the Luxfer fibre =
cylinders=20
from that you use?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">Regards, =20
Hugh<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: =
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medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org";>owner-personal_subm=
ersibles@psubs.org</A>=20
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] <B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Phil=20
Nuytten<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 7 June 2010 6:49 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
personal_submersibles@psubs.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =
submarine kit-builder's society<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Wil:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Not to =
belabour the=20
subject, but probably important to get it right. The figure quoted is =
for a=20
new build - that is, a design that has not been previously classed by =
any=20
accepted agency. The majority of the cost is for 'plan approval' - =
where the=20
agency's technical people/engineers go over the detailed submissions, =
checking=20
out each calculation, each FEA, each fab drawing, strain gauge =
results,=20
radiography, compliance surveys reports, etc. Once plan approval has =
been=20
granted then that specific design package is given what is called =
'type=20
approval' or 'type class' or 'model approval' or 'serial design =
approval'=20
(differing terminology in different agencies). This simply means =
that=20
the specific design approved can be duplicated any number of =
times=20
without the necessity for plan approval each time. That allows you to =
absorb=20
the not inconsiderable cost of plan approval over several builds - as =
long as=20
you don't change anything. You can upgrade or change features from the =
drawings on file with the agency, but each change must be =
approved (at=20
some cost) and the new drawings supersede the originals ( the original =
drawings are retained for annual and major survey purposes =
on existing=20
subs of the original model.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">All this =
is=20
presumably fine for manufacturers like us - but an unrealistic burden =
for a=20
home builder! (actually, it's not even fine for us - a hundred grand =
for plan=20
approval and a fairly standard pricing scale of about a hundred bucks =
an hour=20
for a registered, qualified engineer means that the classing agency is =
proposing to spend something like a thousand hours on design review =
??) -=20
(less the agency's mark-up, of course). On a 40 hour week,=20
that's twenty weeks - factor in the weekends and holidays and =
it's=20
half a year! It doesn't take a qualified engineer anywhere near =
that time=20
to actually prepare the entire plan, do the calculations, etc., =20
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hmmm - =
I'm on a=20
soap-box, I see.</SPAN> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Re: =
Roatan and=20
Stanley's 'the best insurance is the fact that I'm with you' - that's=20
sarcastically referred to as the 'Reverend Jones waiver' in the biz. =
(as in "=20
go ahead and drink the Cool-aid, see, I'm drinking it, too! "- =
old-timers will=20
get the reference, quickly. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Phil</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt =
3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: =
medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- =
Original=20
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A=20
title=3Dinfo@concretesubmarine.com=20
href=3D"mailto:info@concretesubmarine.com";>Wilfried Ellmer</A>=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A=20
title=3Dpersonal_submersibles@psubs.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org";>personal_submersibles@psu=
bs.org</A>=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> =
Sunday, June 06,=20
2010 5:31 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:=20
[PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's =
society<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">Hello =
Phil,<BR><BR>Sorry for=20
a "not terribly accurate" interpetation of your opinion about =
classification=20
of private personal subs and thanks your clarfification of this=20
point.<BR><BR>Of course i am aware that you do a lot of classing in =
your=20
business for several reasons.<BR><BR>Thanks for putting some overall =
numbers=20
on the discussion, 150.000 USD budget (minimum) for doing paperwork =
if you=20
go for clasification (with a standard proyect - nothing =
fancy).<BR><BR>Which=20
means projects that can not afford that sum (for paperwork) are=20
automatically pushed out of "viability zone".<BR><BR>For what you =
call "rad=20
new concepts" you need a lot more (add a couple of ceros to the=20
number).<BR><BR>At the end the most critical point is liability - =
you can=20
get ruined by the defense costs even if you win it at the end. =
<BR><BR>If=20
you do something commercial in a "high liability entanglement risk" =
segment=20
it is convenient to have some deep thoughts about "project risk=20
management".<BR><BR>I find it interesting that Roatan comes to your =
mind in=20
that context. I estimate Karl Stanley a lot for his guts and his =
business=20
model - his oral waiver for sub passengers is legendary - "this sub =
is not=20
<BR><BR>classed your only guarantee is - i come with you" - close =
the hatch=20
and dive.<BR> <BR>Looks like most of his customers are just =
fine with=20
that.<BR><BR>It has a long tradition in multinational companies to =
do the=20
R&D pilot projects in countries where "nanny state security" is =
not a=20
"politically desired" and "legally implemented" status. (I am =
writing this=20
<BR><BR>lines from south america.)<BR><BR>European Submarine =
Structures AB=20
has Headquaters in Stockholm (Sweden) and a R&D Branch in =
Cartagena=20
South America.<BR><BR>Maybe we should talk about a "low paperwork =
hassle"=20
R&D cooperation for some of the "rad new concepts" - make them =
work in a=20
ambient where paperwork cost and hassle is not the decicive project=20
management <BR><BR>factor.<BR><BR>The basic question is: Why should =
i pay=20
150.000 USD to clear the question "is it safe?" - when a 50 USD test =
proceedure can give me a so much better answer.<BR><BR>150.000 is a =
lot of=20
money for getting what is finally just a "opinion". If i =
invest this=20
in test series, double the material strength, i can get a lot more =
safety=20
for the money - much more "bang for the <BR><BR>bug" as you =
say.<BR><BR>The=20
good thing is classification is a "CAN HAVE" not a "MUST HAVE" - for =
private=20
sub builders and they should be interested to keep it that way and =
not=20
prepare the ground that overregulation and <BR><BR>administrative =
overhead=20
costs pushes the sport into the "no viability =
zone".<BR><BR>Wil<BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://concretesubmarine.com";>concretesubmarine.com</A><o:p></o:p=
></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>2010/6/5 Phil Nuytten <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:phil@philnuytten.com";>phil@philnuytten.com</A>><o:p></o=
:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hey,=20
Wil!</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Err - =
Phil didn't=20
'recommend not to go for ABS' (or any other certifying agencies, for =
that=20
matter). I do question the value of having a classed sub if you =
don't plan=20
to take passengers for hire or those who would not be willing to =
sign a=20
'draconian' waiver to dive in your sub. The cost of initial 'plan =
approval'=20
and then the many visits by surveyors during the construction phase, =
pressure tests and sea-trials can easily chew up a hundred =
and=20
fifty thousand dollars. The prices vary, but all are expensive =
for a=20
home-built - where you can't pass the cost on to a customer. We have =
actually had potential customers change their minds about buying a=20
semi-custom sub from us, when they found that certification of a new =
build=20
could easily bet ten percent of the purchase price.=20
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I=20
believe that a home-built should should follow the accepted =
PVHO and=20
MTS guidlines for construction, however innovative the=20
design.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Just be =
prepared=20
that if your rad new concept is subject to plan approval by a =
classing=20
agency because you want it classed, for whatever reason, you may =
have to=20
open a small vein!</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The =
alternative?=20
Put the sub under regular insurance for theft, fire, etc. and =
self-insure=20
for total loss. This doesn't cut it for liability, however, and =
though=20
your iron-clad waiver may carry the day, you can't stop the victim =
or his=20
estate from bringing an action if he/they so choose - and =
defense can=20
be expensive, with no guarantee that you'll recover legal costs, =
even if you=20
win.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">For the =
record,=20
our subs are classed variously by Lloyds, ABS, Cayman, and=20
DNV.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Also =
for the=20
record, I've been personally responsible for the classing of more =
than 90=20
'submersibles' of one type or another, so it's not terribly accurate =
to say=20
that I don't believe in sub classification, =
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">period!</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Or, if =
you want=20
to avoid all paperwork hassles - maybe move to=20
Roatan!</SPAN> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>---- Original Message ----- =
<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt =
3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: =
medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A=20
title=3Dinfo@concretesubmarine.com =
href=3D"mailto:info@concretesubmarine.com"=20
target=3D_blank>Wilfried Ellmer</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A=20
title=3Dpersonal_submersibles@psubs.org=20
href=3D"mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"=20
target=3D_blank>personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> =
Saturday, June=20
05, 2010 2:38 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:=20
[PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's=20
society<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">Hello =
Jon,<BR><BR>I have=20
not been on this forum for quite a while...just a few =
inputs.<BR><BR>Doing=20
something PIONEER while staying within STANDARDS is like putting =
edges on=20
a circle.<BR><BR>If you want to be a "explorer" and keep a =
"defensive=20
legal position" all the time - how will that work?<BR><BR>Safety =
is NOT=20
the same as "Standard conform" - safety does not come from =
stamping -=20
safety comes from solid testing and solid overbuild. No matter if =
it is=20
standard conform or not.<BR><BR>The sea does not know if your hull =
is=20
stamped, approved, standard conform...whatever...it just finds =
your crush=20
depth - stay sufficiently away from it - 1:3 - testing is the=20
key.<BR><BR>If you want to build a sub according to a "industrial =
pressure=20
vessel standard" it will look, feel, and basicly - be, a =
"industrial=20
pressure vessel" - who is really dreaming about "industrial =
pressure=20
vessels" ?<BR><BR>Who wants to have one? Sail one?<BR><BR>What is =
<A=20
href=3D"http://psubs.org"; target=3D_blank>psubs.org</A> good for =
if it is only=20
a pointer to a "industrial pressure vessel standard" ? - if you =
restrict=20
free concepts you are basicly out of business.<BR><BR>Why does =
Phil=20
Nuytten who really has built a lot of subs recommend not to go for =
ABS=20
(not worth it) ?<BR><BR>Wil<BR><A =
href=3D"http://concretesubmarine.com"=20
=
target=3D_blank>concretesubmarine.com</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><o:p></o:p><=
/P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>2010/6/5 Jon Wallace <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jonw@psubs.org"=20
target=3D_blank>jonw@psubs.org</A>><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Jens Laland wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Is this forum meant to be an exclusive =
"submarine=20
kit-builder's society"<BR> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>No, however I don't think Greg was =
insinuating that=20
either, rather he was simply trying to rally potential builders =
out there=20
to "git kraken" as Frank would say. <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
12pt"><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Or, will there still be room for people =
taking the time=20
required to work<BR>on new design or technology, and who needs a =
forum=20
where they can present<BR>their work in a multitude of forms; like =
figments, dreams, ideas,<BR>questions, proposals, concepts, =
sketches,=20
images, stories, discussions,<BR>mock-ups, scale models,=20
etc.?<BR> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>New design and technology discussions are =
fine as long=20
as they are both practical and discussed responsibly. =
Practical=20
means in the context of home-builders and responsible means having =
resources to back up assertions and proposals, or demonstrating =
that you=20
are following a safe path towards your goal. Of utmost =
import is=20
safety and it must be applied diligently to all discussion =
including=20
concepts, proposals, design, fabrication and operation. This =
list is=20
public and we have a responsibility to be careful how we present =
"new"=20
concepts and "unproven" technology so that casual readers or=20
well-intentioned but undisciplined sub-builders don't take those =
concepts=20
as definitive alternatives to traditional materials or procedures =
that are=20
known to work reliably. Enforcing this discipline upon =
ourselves=20
strengthens us as a group and projects a positive image to the =
public as=20
well as government entities and our industry =
partners.<BR><BR>Figments and=20
dreams not based in practical application to home builders, or =
that cannot=20
be shown to be (or include) safe practices, are not appropriate =
for this=20
public list and should be discussed in the "experimental" mailing =
list=20
available to members through your PSUBS accounts. The =
experimental=20
mailing list was created specifically to allow discussion of =
unproven=20
ideas and concepts, and to let those with minds who want to wander =
free,=20
do so. <BR>I assume we have gotten here from the FRP discussion. =
I=20
know nothing about FRP or its viability for PVHO, however it seems =
to be=20
indisputable that FRP for such use is not mainstream. =
However, the=20
fact remains that research is being done on the material for use =
as=20
cylinders under external pressure as evidenced by the experiments=20
conducted by Carl Ross in the UK. The fact that ABS has no=20
certification available for FRP pressure hulls should not be =
discarded so=20
lightly. While it is possible that ABS is just behind the =
times as=20
has been suggested, it is also as equally possible and plausible =
that they=20
know a bit of something about the material in terms of fabrication =
for=20
PVHO and have valid reasons for not creating standards for =
it.<BR><BR>At=20
PSUBS we have adopted and promote the philosophy that home-built =
subs=20
should be built according to ABS standards. The primary =
reason for=20
doing so is to promote the safe design, fabrication, and operation =
of=20
small home-built submarines based upon proven industry standards =
accepted=20
by almost everyone. This gives us credibility and projects =
us in a=20
positive light to both the public and those authorities for which =
these=20
things matter and whom have the ability to regulate us. It =
also=20
binds us to a common standard when the need arises to justify our =
decision=20
for a particular fabrication method or operational procedure.=20
Unfortunately, there are too many people in the world who =
would want=20
to "save us" from ourselves. Not adopting any standard puts =
us on=20
the defensive when challenged about the safety of our vessels.=20
Associating ourselves with industry standards such as ABS =
gives us=20
the upper-hand in any such confrontation.<BR><BR>Now perhaps it =
may be=20
more obvious why some people are challenging the use of FRP for a=20
submarine hull. The fact that ABS does not have standards =
for FRP=20
when used for a PVHO doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, but it =
does=20
mean we need to discuss it responsibly and cautiously. I =
think Alan=20
has been taking pains to do both when discussing his plans for =
using FPR,=20
including using a composite engineer, talking about the expense =
and=20
weight, and suggesting that he will abandon the idea if it is =
either=20
economically unfeasible or otherwise impractical. Alan has =
not=20
employed the typical topic structure we've seen in the past where =
someone=20
throws out an idea as if it is fact and then defends it with =
something=20
like "nothing is impossible". It sounds like he is taking a =
measured=20
approach and doing some significant research into the feasibility =
of the=20
material for his specific design criteria. As long as it =
continues=20
in that manner I don't see a problem with having Alan update us on =
his=20
progress. Challenging new designs and materials is good =
medicine for=20
those embarking on projects that do not conform to ABS standards, =
and in=20
my opinion those designers need to "step up to the plate" and =
accept it.=20
As I have said before to others, don't take offense to being =
challenged about your ideas or plans, especially by a group that =
has a=20
duty to further safe practices for an inherently dangerous hobby. =
If=20
you really believe in what you are doing, accept the criticisms as =
a=20
challenge to drive your project to complete success and show us =
that you=20
were right.<BR><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #888888"><BR>Jon</SPAN> =
<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
12pt"><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>***************************************=
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