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Truer words have never been spoken For anyone who has the drive
and ability to try a project, he was a brilliant man Brian V. Ryder CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
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[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539@aol.com Good old Thomas Alva Edison. -----Original Message----- I have never failed at anything I set my mind too, I have just Identified1000 ways that didn't work Brian V. Ryderbrian@subatlantic.comCONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, isfor the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidentialand privileged information or otherwise be protected by law. Anyunauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If youare not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mailand destroy all copies of the original message. -----Original Message-----From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon WallaceSent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 4:32 PMTo: personal_submersibles@psubs.orgSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's societyJens Laland wrote:> Is this forum meant to be an exclusive "submarine kit-builder's society"> No, however I don't think Greg was insinuating that either, rather he was simply trying to rally potential builders out there to "git kraken" as Frank would say.> Or, will there still be room for people taking the time required to work> on new design or technology, and who needs a forum where they can present> their work in a multitude of forms; like figments, dreams, ideas,> questions, proposals, concepts, sketches, images, stories, discussions,> mock-ups, scale models, etc.?> New design and technology discussions are fine as long as they are both practical and discussed responsibly. Practical means in the context of home-builders and responsible means having resources to back up assertions and proposals, or demonstrating that you are following a safe path towards your goal. Of utmost import is safety and it must be applied diligently to all discussion including concepts, proposals, design, fabrication and operation. This list is public and we have a responsibility to be careful how we present "new" concepts and "unproven" technology so that casual readers or well-intentioned but undisciplined sub-builders don't take those concepts as definitive alternatives to traditional materials or procedures that are known to work reliably. Enforcing this discipline upon ourselves strengthens us as a group and projects a positive image to the public as well as government entities and our industry partners.Figments and dreams not based in practical application to home builders, or that cannot be shown to be (or include) safe practices, are not appropriate for this public list and should be discussed in the "experimental" mailing list available to members through your PSUBS accounts. The experimental mailing list was created specifically to allow discussion of unproven ideas and concepts, and to let those with minds who want to wander free, do so. I assume we have gotten here from the FRP discussion. I know nothing about FRP or its viability for PVHO, however it seems to be indisputable that FRP for such use is not mainstream. However, the fact remains that research is being done on the material for use as cylinders under external pressure as evidenced by the experiments conducted by Carl Ross in the UK. The fact that ABS has no certification available for FRP pressure hulls should not be discarded so lightly. While it is possible that ABS is just behind the times as has been suggested, it is also as equally possible and plausible that they know a bit of something about the material in terms of fabrication for PVHO and have valid reasons for not creating standards for it.At PSUBS we have adopted and promote the philosophy that home-built subs should be built according to ABS standards. The primary reason for doing so is to promote the safe design, fabrication, and operation of small home-built submarines based upon proven industry standards accepted by almost everyone. This gives us credibility and projects us in a positive light to both the public and those authorities for which these things matter and whom have the ability to regulate us. It also binds us to a common standard when the need arises to justify our decision for a particular fabrication method or operational procedure. Unfortunately, there are too many people in the world who would want to "save us" from ourselves. Not adopting any standard puts us on the defensive when challenged about the safety of our vessels. Associating ourselves with industry standards such as ABS gives us the upper-hand in any such confrontation.Now perhaps it may be more obvious why some people are challenging the use of FRP for a submarine hull. The fact that ABS does not have standards for FRP when used for a PVHO doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, but it does mean we need to discuss it responsibly and cautiously. I think Alan has been taking pains to do both when discussing his plans for using FPR, including using a composite engineer, talking about the expense and weight, and suggesting that he will abandon the idea if it is either economically unfeasible or otherwise impractical. Alan has not employed the typical topic structure we've seen in the past where someone throws out an idea as if it is fact and then defends it with something like "nothing is impossible". It sounds like he is taking a measured approach and doing some significant research into the feasibility of the material for his specific design criteria. As long as it continues in that manner I don't see a problem with having Alan update us on his progress. Challenging new designs and materials is good medicine for those embarking on projects that do not conform to ABS standards, and in my opinion those designers need to "step up to the plate" and accept it. As I have said before to others, don't take offense to being challenged about your ideas or plans, especially by a group that has a duty to further safe practices for an inherently dangerous hobby. If you really believe in what you are doing, accept the criticisms as a challenge to drive your project to complete success and show us that you were right.Jon************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US FederalCAN-SPAM Act of 2003. 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