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RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society
I have never failed at anything I set my mind too, I have just Identified
1000 ways that didn't work
Brian V. Ryder
brian@subatlantic.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jon Wallace
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 4:32 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society
Jens Laland wrote:
> Is this forum meant to be an exclusive "submarine kit-builder's society"
>
No, however I don't think Greg was insinuating that either, rather he
was simply trying to rally potential builders out there to "git kraken"
as Frank would say.
> Or, will there still be room for people taking the time required to work
> on new design or technology, and who needs a forum where they can present
> their work in a multitude of forms; like figments, dreams, ideas,
> questions, proposals, concepts, sketches, images, stories, discussions,
> mock-ups, scale models, etc.?
>
New design and technology discussions are fine as long as they are both
practical and discussed responsibly. Practical means in the context of
home-builders and responsible means having resources to back up
assertions and proposals, or demonstrating that you are following a safe
path towards your goal. Of utmost import is safety and it must be
applied diligently to all discussion including concepts, proposals,
design, fabrication and operation. This list is public and we have a
responsibility to be careful how we present "new" concepts and
"unproven" technology so that casual readers or well-intentioned but
undisciplined sub-builders don't take those concepts as definitive
alternatives to traditional materials or procedures that are known to
work reliably. Enforcing this discipline upon ourselves strengthens us
as a group and projects a positive image to the public as well as
government entities and our industry partners.
Figments and dreams not based in practical application to home builders,
or that cannot be shown to be (or include) safe practices, are not
appropriate for this public list and should be discussed in the
"experimental" mailing list available to members through your PSUBS
accounts. The experimental mailing list was created specifically to
allow discussion of unproven ideas and concepts, and to let those with
minds who want to wander free, do so.
I assume we have gotten here from the FRP discussion. I know nothing
about FRP or its viability for PVHO, however it seems to be indisputable
that FRP for such use is not mainstream. However, the fact remains that
research is being done on the material for use as cylinders under
external pressure as evidenced by the experiments conducted by Carl Ross
in the UK. The fact that ABS has no certification available for FRP
pressure hulls should not be discarded so lightly. While it is possible
that ABS is just behind the times as has been suggested, it is also as
equally possible and plausible that they know a bit of something about
the material in terms of fabrication for PVHO and have valid reasons for
not creating standards for it.
At PSUBS we have adopted and promote the philosophy that home-built subs
should be built according to ABS standards. The primary reason for
doing so is to promote the safe design, fabrication, and operation of
small home-built submarines based upon proven industry standards
accepted by almost everyone. This gives us credibility and projects us
in a positive light to both the public and those authorities for which
these things matter and whom have the ability to regulate us. It also
binds us to a common standard when the need arises to justify our
decision for a particular fabrication method or operational procedure.
Unfortunately, there are too many people in the world who would want to
"save us" from ourselves. Not adopting any standard puts us on the
defensive when challenged about the safety of our vessels. Associating
ourselves with industry standards such as ABS gives us the upper-hand in
any such confrontation.
Now perhaps it may be more obvious why some people are challenging the
use of FRP for a submarine hull. The fact that ABS does not have
standards for FRP when used for a PVHO doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss
it, but it does mean we need to discuss it responsibly and cautiously.
I think Alan has been taking pains to do both when discussing his plans
for using FPR, including using a composite engineer, talking about the
expense and weight, and suggesting that he will abandon the idea if it
is either economically unfeasible or otherwise impractical. Alan has
not employed the typical topic structure we've seen in the past where
someone throws out an idea as if it is fact and then defends it with
something like "nothing is impossible". It sounds like he is taking a
measured approach and doing some significant research into the
feasibility of the material for his specific design criteria. As long
as it continues in that manner I don't see a problem with having Alan
update us on his progress. Challenging new designs and materials is
good medicine for those embarking on projects that do not conform to ABS
standards, and in my opinion those designers need to "step up to the
plate" and accept it. As I have said before to others, don't take
offense to being challenged about your ideas or plans, especially by a
group that has a duty to further safe practices for an inherently
dangerous hobby. If you really believe in what you are doing, accept
the criticisms as a challenge to drive your project to complete success
and show us that you were right.
Jon
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Weare, NH 03281
603-529-1100
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